2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Split98]

People, relax.

We did not sign FAs to see how they did in camp. Setoguchi was going to get a shot to start the season no matter how great the kids played. All camp does is put further pressure on Setoguchi performing in the first half of the season.

Meritocracy is still in tact, and you better bet that Setoguchi's position is considerably less stable than it was before camp. Treliving is looking to see what Setoguchi is going to do with a shot to hold onto that spot, but his eyes are absolutely on Jooris or Baertschi to steal that job if he can't prove he is the better option.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Randy Sportak @SUNRandySportak
Baertschi: "I'm in-between being sad and just really confused.” Believes he did everything asked him since last season. #Flames

This is a legitimate concern. The team can't just keep a spot open for him because of his emotional fragility, but at the same time, this looks like it could be his undoing. I sure hope he works his way through this, and becomes the player that he has the skills to be.

I feel bad for Baertschi. But not because I think he is being slighted or shortchanged. It's because he doesn't seem to understand how good he could be if he accepted adversity as a challenge instead of defeat.

[dammage79]

Blegh, Feel for Sven. Understand the disappointment bu he really needs to buckle down and give them a reason to bring him up. Light the A on fire and get over it.

After his comments in his last interview about having "Growing up lots", I sincerely hope he has done just that and gets past being sent down.

[Two Fivenagame]

Well that Baertschi quote is a little worrisome.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FBI

Yeah I'm hoping this isn't going to be a spiral downwards for baertschi. If he spirals, because of setoguchi and jones, that will be such a waste.

But in the end, that is entirely on Baertschi. The team can't set double standards for certain players and prospects based on whether or not their feelings are hurt.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by FBI

Yeah I'm hoping this isn't going to be a spiral downwards for baertschi. If he spirals, because of setoguchi and jones, that will be such a waste.

If Baertschi spirals, he does so because of Baertschi and Baertschi alone.

I doubt it though.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

With Baertschi's comments it makes me think his greatest obstacle to him being a regular in the NHL is his attitude. He's got to take the disappointment and use it as motivation. If he sits and pouts he's done. Come to think of it, if he sits and pouts I don't want him on our team.

it's a case of him knowing he is as good, or better than the guys that are staying here.

I think in his mind his greatest obstacle is being given an opportunity.

[StrykerSteve]

Disappointing.

[Arya Stark]

Baertschi should be mad when a scrub like Setoguchi gets a spot and he's left off.

The slogan "always earned, never given" is rubbish and I think the Flames prospects will see that. I bet they look at this situation and wonder if they even want to be part of this organization.

[PeteMoss]

I'm sure they all feel the same way. Sven is the only one who said it to the media.

Up to him now. If he goes down there and plays like he did in camp and starts producing he'll be up in no time.

[Falclore]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm sure they all feel the same way. Sven is the only one who said it to the media.

Up to him now. If he goes down there and plays like he did in camp and starts producing he'll be up in no time.

I agree. Anyone who says there are not disappointed is giving a quote for the media vs telling it like it is. It is all about how Sven reacts with his play over the next few weeks that will tell where his head is at.

[Buck Murdock]

I think Baertschi needs a full season in the NHL. Had he stayed up last year, he'd be a totally different player now. You can't just leave a spot for him, but at this point I don't think time in the AHL is helping him.

[LanceUppercut]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm sure they all feel the same way. Sven is the only one who said it to the media.

I think this is exactly the case. I can't remember when it was, but I think last week Rob Kerr said something like "Sven always gives straight forward and real answers".

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure. But this is not a case of saying one thing and doing another. This is a case of your own faulty assumptions causing upset. The Flames never set arbitrary times on when, where and how they complete their evaluations, even if you have.



Jooris went from AHL project to a kid knocking on the NHL's door. He's vaulted himself well up the organizational ladder, and as a result, I fully expect he will make his NHL debut this year. That is something that was not remotely guaranteed at the start of camp. It is, however, an example of how meritocracy really works. Jooris has shown the Flames that they can trust him to come into this lineup when the need arises.



There is nothing he can prove in Adirondack. The Flames signed him with the hope that he can provide a little offence for the NHL team. He has to be on the NHL team to do this. The simple truth is, his history in the NHL is what earned him an extended look. But the play of guys like Jooris also leaves his footing insecure. I'm not going to worry about whether or not Setoguchi should be in the lineup until around game 10. But he has to produce.



No, the disconnect is that you are taking an extremely narrow view of what "earned" and "given" mean and coupled it with an arbitrary deadline. Setoguchi did enough, past and present, to earn a longer look. Jooris did enough to earn a place in the conversation when call-ups become necessary. Baertschi, IMO, has shown that he is much closer to being an NHL regular today than he was at the end of last season.

Looking at these three players, I expect that - good or bad - Setoguchi does not end the year in Calgary, Baertschi does, and Jooris gets at least a few games. All three of these events would be the result of merit. Training camp is only a small part of that process.

I don't agree.

I think the team did set expectations with fans about the introduction of youth into the lineup, and a team identity built upon earning a spot on the squad. That includes giving your young players marching orders over the offseason on what they need to do to take the next step. Sven in particular seemed to do exactly that.

I think that Treliving has lost street cred with the decision on Setoguchi. Yes, I understand he is a veteran and will get some regular season time to see how he performs, but it is very difficult to say that Setoguchi outplayed Sven or Jooris in the preseason. I've seen nothing to say he came in and beat those kids out of a spot.

The expectation was set by coaching and management, and fans are entitled to be surprised/disappointed that expectations were not met.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Baertschi should be mad when a scrub like Setoguchi gets a spot and he's left off.

Setoguchi has been an every day NHLer for the past five full years—since back before Baertschi was even drafted—and has compiled a resume that includes over 400 NHL games. Are you seriously suggesting that Beartschi should feel slighted for his AHL assignment when a player with +350 games and +100 goals to his credit is still with the team? Come on.

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

The slogan "always earned, never given" is rubbish and I think the Flames prospects will see that. I bet they look at this situation and wonder if they even want to be part of this organization.

The slogan is what it is. A slogan. It means something to the coaches and the players, but not necessarily what you think it ought to mean. And no, I highly doubt that Flames prospects are unanimous in their determination to cut bait as a result of having been cut from this team. You seem to think that the coaches and managers at the helm are amateurs who have no understanding about how to relate to their workforce. I am relatively confident that they have a better handle on things than any of us posting on this message board.

[StrykerSteve]

At this point, I wish they'd just send Gaudreau down, so Addy can be stacked. They'll be more fun to follow this season anyway.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

With Baertschi's comments it makes me think his greatest obstacle to him being a regular in the NHL is his attitude. He's got to take the disappointment and use it as motivation. If he sits and pouts he's done. Come to think of it, if he sits and pouts I don't want him on our team.

Sorry, but a prospect being upset that he got cut isn't indicative of having a poor attitude.

It's indicative of how desperate the guy wants to be in the NHL. It's killing him that he isn't.

He didn't show up out of shape, he didn't bad mouth the organization - instead he worked hard in the offseason, was active in the community and came into camp eager.

Don't paint him as having an attitude problem - it isn't warranted in this circumstances.

[Mr.Coffee]

I just go back to wondering what the point of signing Setoguchi was? It doesn't make much sense to me other than boosting salaries to get to the floor, I guess.

I didn't like the signing because of how deep our forward prospect depth is, and when you look at a quote like that from Baerstchi, there are two sides of the coin in the situation of "creating adversity" and hoping someone breaks through it.

Does playing in the AHL make Baertschi better? I seriously doubt it. Jooris maybe? I dunno, tough decisions, but force signing some slug like Setoguchi causes tougher decisions than necessary.

The Flames also need to realize that fans don't want to watch the vets. Nobody really cares about them.

Don't agree with the Setoguchi over Jooris or Baerstchi. At all. Regardless of "evaluations all season"... because I bet that's not how the rookies view it. They view it that they have been cut. Because they have been cut.

[Buck Murdock]

Sven has also had Burke tear him a new one last year. Its not hard to see why he might not feel as optimistic about getting sent down. Every player is different. Some thrive in the AHL, some are better suited to the NHL for development. It would be good for the organization to show some faith/confidence in him, i think it would go along way.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

I think this is exactly the case. I can't remember when it was, but I think last week Rob Kerr said something like "Sven always gives straight forward and real answers".

There's a reason players try to give positive answers instead of simply expressing their frustration. You don't want to give the impression that those who are on the team deserved the spot less than you, even if you feel that way privately.

It's only a quick reply to a question but still the "confused" part in Sven's quote doesn't feel right. As if he still doesn't understand his situation. Being a first round pick only gets you so far. Working hard is the bare minimum. You don't get a spot simply because you worked hard.