Summer 2015 Prospect Ranking - Round 23 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Bingo · 07-28-2015, 08:23 AM

Cali Panthers Fan · 07-28-2015, 08:52 AM

Hathaway, then Kanzig.

No computer, NOT Danzig...Kanzig.

Fighting Banana Slug · 07-28-2015, 09:10 AM

Oh boy, I might be voting Seiloff for a while longer. I don't even like him that much, but going from 7 to 12 to oblivion seems a bit much, even with the tough year.

Cali Panthers Fan · 07-28-2015, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Oh boy, I might be voting Seiloff for a while longer. I don't even like him that much, but going from 7 to 12 to oblivion seems a bit much, even with the tough year.

It's a product of a vastly improved prospect base, especially on defense, along with a pretty significant regression in his play. Prospects who regress almost never make the NHL. Heck, even the ones who stay stagnant in their development are pretty much doomed.

Fighting Banana Slug · 07-28-2015, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

It's a product of a vastly improved prospect base, especially on defense, along with a pretty significant regression in his play. Prospects who regress almost never make the NHL. Heck, even the ones who stay stagnant in their development are pretty much doomed.

For sure. It really is a good problem to have, if you can even call it a problem. I can certainly understand the low ranking, but with my homer glasses firmly in place, I am projecting a bounce back year from Seiloff. On the regression point, I think there was a pretty clear cause for that regression, so I think he could buck that trend with a healthy year. Pure speculation on my part, of course.

FlamesAddiction · 07-28-2015, 09:47 AM

I'll take the mystery bag at this point.

Karnaukhov for me. I have a gut feeling that by next year at this time, he will be looked at as a big riser from his 5th round status.

savardandjokinen · 07-28-2015, 09:52 AM

Sieloff

ricardodw · 07-28-2015, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kehatch

I think you are right.

It's better to have players that can get the puck out of your own end rather stand back and wait for the other team to shoot.

It's better to have D that can generate a chance on a zone exit then one that just hucks it down the ice losing possession.

It's better to have five players then it is three playing offence when the puck is in the offensive zone.

If advanced stats tell us anything it's that there is limited room for one dimensional players. That includes offense only forwards as well as defence only D. You need three zone players now a days.

Obviously there is no clear line and some players are better at one thing then another. There is also room for special team specialists. But guys like Sieloff and Kanzig (probably) don't have the complete game necessary to fit today's NHL.

Bringing the discussion forward from the 22nd round that Sieloff was still not good enough.

There is a team that went 100% with the type of d-men that you are describing. It was the Vancouver Canucks. When it came to the playoffs and Ferland was let loose they had absolutely no answer. Pretty sure they would if they had an Engelland in their system they would have dressed him to play against Ferland. Would the Flames have won that series if the Canucks hadn't totally lost focus every time Ferland was on the ice?

The Ducks found room for 2 stay at home d-men in Stoner and Despres in addition to Beauchimin who was able to provide the physical cover so that Lindholm could do his Brodie impression.

The Hawks only played 4 d-men but they had Seabrook who was on the ice half the time and the Flames have no one in their system (and there are very few in the league) that has a similar mixed of size skill and aggression.

Even the absolute poster team for run and gun.... the Lighting had Colburn dressing and playing 16 minutes a game despite being a give away machine.

If Gio was not injured and the Flames were able to go with Gio-Brodie and Russell-Wideman against the Ducks I think that Hartley would have Engelland playing more than his regular season ice time against the Ducks.

Enoch Root · 07-28-2015, 10:06 AM

still riding the Hathaway train

Street Pharmacist · 07-28-2015, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bringing the discussion forward from the 22nd round that Sieloff was still not good enough.

There is a team that went 100% with the type of d-men that you are describing. It was the Vancouver Canucks. When it came to the playoffs and Ferland was let loose they had absolutely no answer. Pretty sure they would if they had an Engelland in their system they would have dressed him to play against Ferland. Would the Flames have won that series if the Canucks hadn't totally lost focus every time Ferland was on the ice?

The Ducks found room for 2 stay at home d-men in Stoner and Despres in addition to Beauchimin who was able to provide the physical cover so that Lindholm could do his Brodie impression.

The Hawks only played 4 d-men but they had Seabrook who was on the ice half the time and the Flames have no one in their system (and there are very few in the league) that has a similar mixed of size skill and aggression.

Even the absolute poster team for run and gun.... the Lighting had Colburn dressing and playing 16 minutes a game despite being a give away machine.

If Gio was not injured and the Flames were able to go with Gio-Brodie and Russell-Wideman against the Ducks I think that Hartley would have Engelland playing more than his regular season ice time against the Ducks.

How exactly would an Engelland have stopped Ferland from hitting Bieksa and causing turnovers??

codynw · 07-28-2015, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

How exactly would an Engelland have stopped Ferland from hitting Bieksa and causing turnovers??

Obviously Ferland would have been scared if there had been a tough guy on the Canucks. God don't you know anything?

Fire · 07-28-2015, 11:02 AM

Not much of quality left.

I don't consider Billins or Wolf Flames prospects so I would never vote for them.

Of the remaining I would rank them as follows:

1. Gilmour - A bit underrated. Has been solid in Providence in his first 3 seasons.
2. Karnaukhov - Was inconsistent in his first year in the WHL, but has some skill and size. Has a chance to have a break out season if he's wants it bad enough.
3. Hathaway - Good size, but not much skill. If he makes it will be as a bottom 6 energy player.
4. Elson - If he makes the NHL it will be because of his high energy. Like Jooris.
5. Sieloff - Missed a lot of development time. Struggled to be a regular AHL defender last season.
6. Mattson - A defensive defenseman. Has the size but does he have the skill?
7. Kanzig - Huge but can he ever be a good enough skater to be in the NHL. Odds are he won't
8. Bruce - A Kanzig clone. Odds are very low he makes the NHL
9. Harrison - Disappointing college career so far.
10. Grant - Career AHLer
11. Deblouw - Disappointing college career. I don't expect this guy to be offered a contract.
12. Van Brabant - Good chance he get's Hanowskied after this season

ricardodw · 07-28-2015, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

How exactly would an Engelland have stopped Ferland from hitting Bieksa and causing turnovers??

Bieksa would not have been on the ice with Ferland. As it was Bieksa was the toughest D-man on the Canucks... The Canucks did not want Ferland running Tanev or Elder. The Canucks were lining up Bieksa to play against Ferland.

How well did Ferland dominate playing against the Ducks? It is significantly different hitting a guy bigger and stronger than yourself than hitting someone smaller and weaker.

Is Engelland a better skater or puck mover than Bieksa. How many times did you see someone on either the Canucks or Ducks make big hits on Engelland?

Is that because Engelland is so shifty? or so good with the puck?

codynw · 07-28-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bieksa would not have been on the ice with Ferland. As it was Bieksa was the toughest D-man on the Canucks... The Canucks did not want Ferland running Tanev or Elder. The Canucks were lining up Bieksa to play against Ferland.

Did you watch that series at all? The Canucks did basically zero line matching. It was Hartley who was putting Ferland out against Bieksa, not the other way around.

Enoch Root · 07-28-2015, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bieksa would not have been on the ice with Ferland. As it was Bieksa was the toughest D-man on the Canucks... The Canucks did not want Ferland running Tanev or Elder. The Canucks were lining up Bieksa to play against Ferland.

How well did Ferland dominate playing against the Ducks? It is significantly different hitting a guy bigger and stronger than yourself than hitting someone smaller and weaker.

Is Engelland a better skater or puck mover than Bieksa. How many times did you see someone on either the Canucks or Ducks make big hits on Engelland?

Is that because Engelland is so shifty? or so good with the puck?

Ferland was injured.

Also, Vatanen is tiny and Lindholm isn't going to slow down Ferland.

Street Pharmacist · 07-28-2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bieksa would not have been on the ice with Ferland. As it was Bieksa was the toughest D-man on the Canucks... The Canucks did not want Ferland running Tanev or Elder. The Canucks were lining up Bieksa to play against Ferland.

How well did Ferland dominate playing against the Ducks? It is significantly different hitting a guy bigger and stronger than yourself than hitting someone smaller and weaker.

Is Engelland a better skater or puck mover than Bieksa. How many times did you see someone on either the Canucks or Ducks make big hits on Engelland?

Is that because Engelland is so shifty? or so good with the puck?

Ferland was injured, and the Ducks D were all more mobile and better puck movers than Vancouver's.

It has nothing to do with scaring Ferland away from hitting anyone.

Edit: and despite playing with Engelland, Brodie sure got ran over a lot against Anaheim...

Your logic is flawed

heep223 · 07-28-2015, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Is Engelland a better skater or puck mover than Bieksa.

Yes. To both.

cannon7 · 07-28-2015, 12:38 PM

The thing about Sieloff is that he really only has one significant quality, and that's his mean streak. Aside from that he is either average or below average in pretty much every other category. I appreciate his fearlessness and think he was a worthwhile gamble, but he has yet to show that he's anything more than a kamikaze-style d-man. He's also not big enough to survive in the NHL playing that style. Look at a guy like Denis Gauthier, who played a similar style -- his performance in juniors was significantly more impressive than Sieloff, he had more size than Sieloff and even he was nothing to write home about apart from his hip checking ability.

mikephoen · 07-28-2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Your logic is flawed

This part of your post sums up my thoughts on almost everything ricardodw posts.

Fighting Banana Slug · 07-28-2015, 12:53 PM

Sieloff is a long shot at this point as his offense seems limited, but he isn't exactly small (210 lbs according to hockeydb). Best case scenario, he would be a Willie Mitchell type. I suppose a Gauthier comparison could be made, but Gauthier was plain dumb, going for the hits. I trust Seiloff isn't that sort of player, but I really couldn't say for sure.