Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

There was no gap between your definition of an occupation and a blockade. Israel maintained strict control of the borders (including the passage of goods, exports, and imports critical for economy prosperity), airspace, and water. They also destroyed much of what they left behind. So, look how that ended up.

It obviously ended up horribly. Israel should have kept settlements and never withdrew. And yes, that would be illegal, yet better solution.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You would be correct if Israel cut power out of revenge. But they did it to get hostages released, a condition that Hamas could easily satisfy and the thing they should have done regardless.

Which I don't believe.
The condition of hostages is simply a front for their justification of the killing of innocents.
That power is going off regardless.

You might not like to hear it but both sides aren't that different in that they are willing to kill innocents and children.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's not how conflicts work. If Israel took this current path to its extreme conclusion and a million people starved to death, the rest of the world isn't going to say "oh well, it's still Hamas' fault". Israel will get blamed for those deaths. And for a country like Israel that largely relies on another country for its security, international reputation isn't something they can just ignore. If Israel lets fanatics drive their response, it will likely harm their security in the long term.

So you believe that to get USA on board, Israel should have not cut off power and water? Yet Israel did and USA is clearly on board.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Which I don't believe.
The condition of hostages is simply a front for their justification of the killing of innocents.
That power is going off regardless.

You might not like to hear it but both sides aren't that different in that they are willing to kill innocents and children.

If this is the case, Hamas can have a massive PR win by releasing hostages and then saying: "See, the power is still off". Yet they don't do it. Perhaps because they know that Israel will turn it back on and the whole world will see that hostages were the real reason.

[2ArmBands]

Find it interesting that “war crimes” keep coming up like there is an expectation that these will hold any merit in the next couple of days. Hamas militants just stormed into Israel opening fire on civilians and killing innocent with no regard what so ever. Some of the footage of slain babies, grenading bomb shelters with 10s of civilians in them, taking hostages at will is some of the most horrific s$&! I have ever seen. It’s disgusting and sad and perhaps some of the largest atrocities we will see against mankind in our lifetime. Sadly I think that Israel’s response will include a lot of superficial talk with a lot of aggressive action that is going to lead to thousands of casualties.

The whole situation is so incredibly dire and devastating.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No. It's because of the actions of Israel continuing the cycle of violence.

That's like Hamas saying the people they killed died because of Israel.

And on and on we go.

What does stopping the cycle of violence mean to you? And do you have any real-world examples you can point to of how Israel should respond to the Hamas attack?

Because it looks to me like the standard people are holding Israel to right now is a standard no country at war has ever met.

[gvitaly]

As was expected Hamas is blocking roads trying to prevent civilians from evacuating the northern part of Gaza.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713244796372804042

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

If this is the case, Hamas can have a massive PR win by releasing hostages and then saying: "See, the power is still off". Yet they don't do it. Perhaps because they know that Israel will turn it back on and the whole world will see that hostages were the real reason.

You really do have no issue with the killing of innocents.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What does stopping the cycle of violence mean to you? And do you have any real-world examples you can point to of how Israel should respond to the Hamas attack?

Because it looks to me like the standard people are holding Israel to right now is a standard no country at war has ever met.

Is it too much to ask them not to target hospitals and civilians?

[monkeyman]

I think one thing has become clear. The total destruction of Hamas will benefit Palestine and Israel in the long run. Leaving them in power will cause untold misery and deaths on both sides. Let's hope this leads to a better future for all involved.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

As was expected Hamas is blocking roads trying to prevent civilians from evacuating the northern part of Gaza.

OK, so I've heard justification here that because Gaza elected Hamas, citizens are also guilty for that support. But now we have citizens following Israeli warnings and fleeing, counter to Hamas orders. So that should indicate that no, Gaza citizens are not supporting Hamas. Which also means collective punishment is not a valid response.


What should Israel do? No idea, but I can't support collective punishment.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Is it too much to ask them not to target hospitals and civilians?

Are they targeting hospitals and civilians?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And, because someone is going to say it, holding Hamas to a lower standard excuses or justifies nothing. It’s simply recognizing that they are a terrorist organization and will do what terrorist organizations do, which is horrific and expected.

Pepsi.

The world has a terrorist organization in Hamas. Do you think this organization should be eliminated? If so, do you think it is possible to eliminate Hamas without civilian casualties?

Should countries other than Israel join in and help eliminate Hamas?

I’m not baiting here. Unfortunately, there are no time machines. We can’t go back 80 years, 2000 years, heck we can’t even go back a week before the music festival started.

The line in the sand of time is now. Should Hamas be eliminated, or maybe should Israel try and negotiate with Hamas? How should Israel and other countries deal with this? I don’t expect you to have all the answers, just curious what your opinion is.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Are they targeting hospitals and civilians?

This is a uniquely messed up war where both Israeli and Palestinian citizens rely on Israel.

So Israel has to go to war with a country and protect that country's citizens from itself at the same time.
I don't think cutting off power to hospitals is the right answer IMO, but I understand the difficult position Israel is in having to enter a war with rules applied to them and not the other side and responsibility only on them to minimize civilian casualties.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You really do have no issue with the killing of innocents.

I have an issue with killing civilians, I just think it's Hamas fault.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OK, so I've heard justification here that because Gaza elected Hamas, citizens are also guilty for that support. But now we have citizens following Israeli warnings and fleeing, counter to Hamas orders. So that should indicate that no, Gaza citizens are not supporting Hamas. Which also means collective punishment is not a valid response.


What should Israel do? No idea, but I can't support collective punishment.

I personally don't think that the citizens of Gaza had much say. They had the Fatah, and then there started battles between Fatah(Arafat's and Abu Mazen's party) and Hamas for control of the territory. Hamas won in the bloody transition. Fatah still governs the West Bank.

Now Hamas is the governing body in Gaza, much like Putin is in Russia. Putin was also initially elected. Then after the election Hamas got control of the schools, the government facilities, they paycheques, taxes etc. It makes it much easier for them to control anything in the strip, and eradicate anyone that opposes them. Just in 2022 they evacuated/destroyed a Beduine village killing many of its members.

Here's the thing even if you treat the citizens of Gaza as hostages, and not as accomplices, you still need to solve that hostage situation one way or another. You can't let the group that holds 2 million people hostage the ability to exist in power. Why not? because each time they only worsen the conditions inside the strip unless they get international funds, and inflict more and more damage on the people of Israel. So yes you have to eradicate Hamas in any way possible, despite the huge cost in innocent lives on both sides.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Cool. Do you agree, that Israel is entitled to treat Palestinian civilians the same way Hamas treats Israeli civilians? That is, kill them without a warning?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Not sure saying "Our guys should have the same carte blanche to indiscriminately murder as literal terrorists" is the gotcha you think it is.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So you believe that to get USA on board, Israel should have not cut off power and water? Yet Israel did and USA is clearly on board.

Not at all. I'm saying that holding the position that essentially no matter what Israel does, Gaza civilian deaths are Hamas' fault because they are the aggressor and are holding hostages is demonstrating ignorance of how conflicts and international relations work.

Responses need to be proportional. Israel will get latitude from western nations in killing some civilians, as long as it's perceived as largely unavoidable collateral damage in eliminating Hamas. But starving an entire population doesn't fit that bill and it's considered a crime against humanity for a reason. Even if Hamas doesn't release any hostages, blocking food and electricity access to 2 million people in Gaza is not viable in the long term, particularly for a country that relies so much on a foreign country to maintain its security.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's not how conflicts work. If Israel took this current path to its extreme conclusion and a million people starved to death, the rest of the world isn't going to say "oh well, it's still Hamas' fault". Israel will get blamed for those deaths. And for a country like Israel that largely relies on another country for its security, international reputation isn't something they can just ignore. If Israel lets fanatics drive their response, it will likely harm their security in the long term.

This underestimates the power of Christian Zionists in the US govt.

It's worth remembering there is a significant portion of people in the US apparatus that legitimately believe a holy war is required to bring about the second coming of Jesus.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Are they targeting hospitals and civilians?

Being conveniently deliberately obtuse.
Yes.
I'm not going to explain the electricity/hospital bit again.