Israel declares war on Hamas

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Anyway, I tried putting that into perspective for another user that didnt know how bad anti-Semitism was, even after watching those sick protests.
.

That isn't true or what you did in anyway.

[PsYcNeT]

So was anyone in Royal Oak or Canyon Meadows a target of the "Hamas Day of Rage" yesterday or was it just more scare-mongering that totally wasn't obvious

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Puppet Guy

That's an old clip. Nicky Halley hasn't been UN ambassador since 2018.

Yikes, thank you! Removed the fake news link!

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

You do understand that you are advocating for is extremely obvious a war crime? Israel is deliberately targeting all people in Gaza with immediate and significant threat to their health as a negotiation tactic with Hamas.

You are absolutely correct and I see nothing wrong with it. To be more objective, though, you could have said "..as negotiation tactic with Hamas to release hostages". I see no way to magically rescue hostages nor to somehow threat health of only those, who are directly responsible for taking hostages. If your suggestion is to negotiate for months, no, Israel denied your suggestion. Israel demands that its citizens should be freed now. Is it not a reasonable demand? I would also argue, that this can't be war crime, because taking hostages is a war crime in itself, thus cutting off water is merely a tool to release hostages, thus stopping a war crime.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Hamas has said and been a lot of things like many organizations with a history. Many here keep pointing out that they say they want to destroy Israel without mentioning they have ALSO said they would accept peace if the borders were returned to where they were in 1967, among many other things which clearly suggest that they do consider peace and co-existence as an option.

Which is true? Obviously both, because Hamas isn't a hive mind. There were and are people filled with hate in the organization as well as much more reasonable freedom fighters. As well as some people who genuinely just want to do good within the strongest organization in the area.

Hell, the hate-filled terrorists can surprisingly often be the exact same people who want to legitimately help their local community. Individual people can also go down different paths when given different opportunities.

As already mentioned in the thread, Hamas used to be a lot more in the business of building schools and hospitals and creating a livable country for Palestinians. More specifically, that was the path they had been moving towards before the blockade started. That looked like the path they were on, which is one of the reasons they were seen as a votable option. (The key factor was that they were seen as significantly less corrupt, which was at that point probably true too.) There was an expectation among Hamas that as a legitimate governmental organization they would start to be treated as equals internationally and eventually taken off terrorist lists.

A comparison point would be the ANC in South Africa, which was also categorized as a terrorist organization. Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist. Oh, and the ANC was also supported by Russia for further political complication. The ANC also had it's radicals saying all kinds of unprintable things about the white population in South Africa, yet when the apartheid ended and the ANC took over politically, they were treated like the governing party and not like terrorists.

Of course there are also differences between the history of ANC and Hamas (the most important of which is that ANC was much more of a tent organization for different groups), but the point I'm trying to make is that accepting the Hamas as a legitimate local government was absolutely an option based on historical precedent.

Do I know for sure that if Hamas had been accepted as the leading party of Palestinians, they would have de-radicalized further (instead of becoming more extreme which is what did happen)? Obviously not. The hate did run deep then as it does now. But I would claim that if you did pay attention to the policies Israel chose to pursue and their effects on Gaza, it was just obvious that those policies had an exactly 0% chance of leading to good outcomes, and that other paths did exist.

Good post in general. Still, two things that should be addressed:

1. While it is true that some Hamas people talked about accepting 1967 borders, when they did ,Oct 7th attack, they claim that everyone they killed was on occupied land and thus a legitimate target. Problem is, they made all their killings on what is Israel's land under 1967 borders. Hence, after Oct 7th their statement about 1967 borders is no longer valid.

2. Accepting Hamas as legitimate government was indeed an option. They were asked to do three things, after they were elected:

Recognize Israel, disavow violance and agree to follow agreements, previously made with Palestine authorities (who were still elected president). Hamas declined. Later they killed or expelled all those, who were loyal to Fatah and elected president, and subsequently cancelled all the future elections. That's how they were not accepted as legitimate government.

Quartet on the Middle East set conditions before they would continue to provide aid to the PA or have any dialogue with any member of a Hamas-led PA government. These conditions were: recognition of Israel, disavowal of violent actions, and acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the PA, including the Oslo Accords.[5] Hamas refused to accept these conditions and aid to the PA was stopped and sanctions against the PA imposed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc...the_Gaza_Strip

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

What kind of ridiculous justification is that for capturing people without charge? That's like saying well since everyone in Israel has to serve in the military for a period of time that means there are no civilians in Israel. The excuses for Israeli attrocities are getting more strange by the minute.

This is exactly how it works under international law. If you think, that it is ridiculous - fair enough, you are entitled to the opinion that international law is ridiculous.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Juat consider for a second the population transfer Israel is commanding. Gaza is already one of the most densely populated ares in the world, with extremely limited infrastructure to support it's citizens. Now Israel is demanding that a little over half the population (most of whom are underaged btw) should move in with the other half, in one day, or suffer the consequences. How are they even logistically supposed to do that? Where are they supposed to stay? How would they live there? For how long? With whatz when they don't have time to pack or the logistical means to move their stuff?

Israel is clearly treating civilians wrong here. They should follow Hamas' example instead - just kill them in their beds.

[Bagor]

Hospitals in Gaza risk turning into morgues without electricity, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says....

.. "As Gaza loses power, hospitals lose power, putting newborns in incubators and elderly patients on oxygen at risk. Kidney dialysis stops, and X-rays can't be taken," said Fabrizio Carboni, the ICRC's director for the region.

"Without electricity, hospitals risk turning into morgues.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67087035

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are absolutely correct and I see nothing wrong with it.

Can you completely clafify. This is what you absolutely have no problem with? The indiscriminate killing of the most vulnerable?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

The country just suffered a terrorist attack that on relative terms, equates to almost 30,000 American citizens killed. And not just killed, but brutally murdered, hunted down, and slaughtered like wild stock. Families, young teenagers, kids, babies. Entire families savagely burned alive and killed. Nothing like this seen since the Holocaust, which remains a scar on every living Jew.

…

Do you know how many German citizens were killed in the bombings of Dresden when the Allies were fighting Germany? Countries do what they need to do.

I feel terrible for the average innocent Palestinian caught in the cross fire. It’s almost a death sentence to be born in the Gaza strip. But that is the lottery of life, and if Hamas was really interested in the protection of their citizens, they should release the hostages and not hide within civilian infastructure.

The contrast between how people speak about Israeli deaths and Palestinian deaths, as seen here, is always startling, and probably why the innocence of the Israeli side is hard to believe.

[bluejays]

It may have been answered already, but what is the expectation from Israel for asking everyone to move to the south? Is there an expectation that the militants will stay behind? Are there checkpoints to somehow weed out who could be a militant while the people migrate to the south? Put aside conspiracy theory stuff, but what are they hoping to accomplish?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

Q

Hamas has said and been a lot of things like many organizations with a history. Many here keep pointing out that they say they want to destroy Israel without mentioning they have ALSO said they would accept peace if the borders were returned to where they were in 1967, among many other things which clearly suggest that they do consider peace and co-existence as an option.

Which is true? Obviously both, because Hamas isn't a hive mind. There were and are people filled with hate in the organization as well as much more reasonable freedom fighters. As well as some people who genuinely just want to do good within the strongest organization in the area.
.

Lol. Hamas didn't say anything of the sort. They stated that they would accept a pull back to the 1967 borders, but also that they would never recognize Israel and wouldn't rest until all of the land had been liberated:

https://www.dw.com/en/hamas-recogniz...ael/a-38656798

"Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea," it said, referring to the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea.

"However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

So they gave Israel the option of giving up military positions, in exchange for....nothing. Great deal.

Here's the actual translated text of the new charter:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/h...-document-full

Hamas has never stated that they would accept anything short of an Islamic state that comprises all of Israel and Palestine.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel is clearly treating civilians wrong here. They should follow Hamas' example instead - just kill them in their beds.

See my above post regarding hospitals.

Isn't that essentially what they're doing? Killing civilians in their beds?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

You know what.
"What's would you do" is the question of a sociopath as a response to "hey this looks a lot like genocide in motion".

Just stop for a second and notice how far your own humanity has already evaporated here, because you want to debate the legitimacy of insanity. The immediate international response from multiple countries and the UN has basically been "this is insane you can't do this". Israel might as well be telling people that they should turn into birds and jump off a building, and if they die jumping off a building because they couldn't actually turn into birds well it's not on us.

Hostage situations are typically resolved over weeks and months, not days. Ground assaults aren't properly planned and prepared in a couple of days anyway.

Since Israel obviously doesn't actually care about the hostages (as they have been bombing a whole lot of places where there might have been hostages), there's no real rush.

Fine. I have a better question for you. What exactly prevents Hamas from releasing hostages? Or, in case they are all dead, admit it.

[PepsiFree]

I also find it interesting that after days of explaining how the choice was easy in who to support between the terrorists and the liberal democracy, Israel’s actions are being justified by the likes of Pointman and blankall on the basis of them simply being better than the actions of terrorists.

An incredibly high bar we should hold all countries to.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67087035

Can you completely clafify. This is what you absolutely have no problem with? The indiscriminate killing of the most vulnerable?

I have no problem with cutting off power until hostages are released. If no power means death to innocents - yes, it is horrible, and I never denied that overall situation is a nightmare. Still, the responsibility is on those who are holding hostages. Can you explain, why exactly they can't release them right now or admit they are dead if this is the case?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by bluejays

It may have been answered already, but what is the expectation from Israel for asking everyone to move to the south? Is there an expectation that the militants will stay behind? Are there checkpoints to somehow weed out who could be a militant while the people migrate to the south? Put aside conspiracy theory stuff, but what are they hoping to accomplish?

They are destroying the tunnel system, infrastructure, and heavy weapon systems. You can move around the lighter homemade rockets easily, but not the larger ones. And yes, many of the militants are remaining. Additionally, Israel has a lot of them pinned down in tunnels and bases, with the air strikes. The next phase involves sweeping the areas.

Thus far, Hamas isn't abandoning the north and still sending fighters out into Israel.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I also find it interesting that after days of explaining how the choice was easy in who to support between the terrorists and the liberal democracy, Israel’s actions are being justified by the likes of Pointman and blankall on the basis of them simply being better than the actions of terrorists.

An incredibly high bar we should hold all countries to.

So, you believe that Palestinians and Israelis should be held to different standards. Then you complain that people treat Palestinians and Israelis differently. Feels like you need to choose one or another.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by blankall

They are destroying the tunnel system, infrastructure, and heavy weapon systems. You can move around the lighter homemade rockets easily, but not the larger ones. And yes, many of the militants are remaining. Additionally, Israel has a lot of them pinned down in tunnels and bases, with the air strikes. The next phase involves sweeping the areas.

Thus far, Hamas isn't abandoning the north and still sending fighters out into Israel.

Thanks. To me makes sense on Israel's part.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The contrast between how people speak about Israeli deaths and Palestinian deaths, as seen here, is always startling, and probably why the innocence of the Israeli side is hard to believe.

Cool. Do you agree, that Israel is entitled to treat Palestinian civilians the same way Hamas treats Israeli civilians? That is, kill them without a warning?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by bluejays

It may have been answered already, but what is the expectation from Israel for asking everyone to move to the south? Is there an expectation that the militants will stay behind? Are there checkpoints to somehow weed out who could be a militant while the people migrate to the south? Put aside conspiracy theory stuff, but what are they hoping to accomplish?

They expect Hamas fighters to stay behind and defend their arms caches and underground tunnels and bunkers. Destroying that infrastructure is one the objectives of the operation.

EDIT: Blankall beat me to it.