My dad was assaulted

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by fatso

Bobloba says he is not really allowed to say what he feels, then provides 3 paragraphs of anecdotal evidence of "natives" social delinquency. He does know a good one though! Classic.

There's some great posts in here, like IFFs, and I think many of us share similar viewpoints. LIke Chris_Lindberg, I'm disappointed that a discussion of First Nations peoples always seems to degenerate to anecdotes and thinly-veiled racist comments.

That said, I still don't get how racial presumptions aren't racist.

I've had my ass handed to me a few times by white dudes. Most panhandlers where I live are by-and-large whites. Most serial killers I see on TV are white. Most wife-beaters I've encountered in life are white.

How come there's no systematic presumption that white people are prone to these things? How come there's no government assistance to help white people stop molesting their kids? How come the raciallized communities aren't calling for the white leaders to put an end to the Paris Hilton plague of stupidity spreading through the white youth community? How come when I got tuned up, it was by just a bunch of dudes?

Because white people are still in the majority. The government do things to address social issues by, education as well as law enforcement. The Paris Hilton phenomenon has also been addressed in editorials and such. What are you suggesting we do?: Exile her.

The reason why it is right and proper to call out the Native communities in this situation is because they already demand separation from the larger group, self governance, and special status. They would have apologies and compensation from the larger group(Non-Native Canadians). They would also like a say in decisions such as environmental issues and industry development that go beyond that of people not of their ancestry. It is not racist to say they need some accountability for the actions of their own people.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The reason why it is right and proper to call out the Native communities in this situation is because they already demand separation from the larger group, self governance, and special status.

The anit-smoking legislation springs to mind here. There is still smoking in the new casino on 37th.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Because white people are still in the majority. The government do things to address social issues by, education as well as law enforcement. The Paris Hilton phenomenon has also been addressed in editorials and such. What are you suggesting we do?: Exile her.

The reason why it is right and proper to call out the Native communities in this situation is because they already demand separation from the larger group, self governance, and special status. They would have apologies and compensation from the larger group(Non-Native Canadians). They would also like a say in decisions such as environmental issues and industry development that go beyond that of people not of their ancestry. It is not racist to say they need some accountability for the actions of their own people.

I was being facetious about the Paris Hilton thing. And I think you kind of proved my point, picked up by IFF, in your comment about 'social programs'.

Still, realizing full well we will never agree, let me see if I understand you:

On the one hand, you're arguing that because white people are the norm, other races are inherently marked as different. Thus, to some extent, white problems and issues are just general or universal cultural problems and issues. They are the majority after all.

On the other hand, your problem, as I understand it, is when those other races/groups demand substantive political recognition along the terms/identifiers of that difference. Your reasoning is that in asking/needing assistance based on terms by which the majority identifies them, those minority groups actively set them apart from the general culture and take advantage of the majority.

Is that right? And which came first? The demarcation of difference from the norm/majority or the claim to specific rights that accrue to those markers of difference?

[Azure]

I think the point is that everyone should be treated the 'same.' Nobody should be given special status, special treatment, and most of all, 'money.'

It creates a sense of entitlement on one side, and turns people racist on the other side when stuff like this happens.

[mykalberta]

Fly back and take care of it yourself. The system has never and will never solve of help anyone.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by fatso

Still, realizing full well we will never agree, let me see if I understand you:

On the one hand, you're arguing that because white people are the norm, other races are inherently marked as different. Thus, to some extent, white problems and issues are just general or universal cultural problems and issues. They are the majority after all.

Not quite. White people as a group don't separate themselves and mark themselves as different. This is generally speaking of course. There are communities of whites in the States and Canada who attempt to separate themselves from other ethnicities. Those communities are judge as a whole depending on their conduct.

Originally Posted by fatso

On the other hand, your problem, as I understand it, is when those other races/groups demand substantive political recognition along the terms/identifiers of that difference. Your reasoning is that in asking/needing assistance based on terms by which the majority identifies them, those minority groups actively set them apart from the general culture and take advantage of the majority.

Speaking of Natives in particular: They take what ever advantage they can get. That's human nature and where it is an undue advantage it is the majorities fault for allowing themselves to be taken advantage of; Not the ethnic group. But by willingly receiving special status( Natives as individuals don't have to accept special status. They could live as the rest of us.) they have an accountability for the behaviour of their sect towards the larger society.

Originally Posted by fatso

And which came first? The demarcation of difference from the norm/majority or the claim to specific rights that accrue to those markers of difference?

Natives and the settlers of Canada(mainly whites) saw huge cultural differences with each other and were naturally separated by language, culture and religion. Treaties and settlement of the land expanded and legislated other differences while the former ones diminished. Sometime in the sixties Canada removed the last of it's societies measures that excluded natives from parts of Canadian society. Today Native leaders in different parts of this country are seeking further division on the basis of the letter and hypothetical intent of old treaties both written and oral.

That is the history. The historical fault lies with both parties involved. This is true of the current situation as well. The differences today being that generally speaking language, culture, and religion are not a great factor anymore. Canada is a mosaic of many ethnic cultures and religions living together equally. Also, today a native chooses to carry the title and privileges of a first nations native. It isn't imposed on them.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think the point is that everyone should be treated the 'same.' Nobody should be given special status, special treatment, and most of all, 'money.'

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Natives and the settlers of Canada(mainly whites) saw huge cultural differences with each other and were naturally separated by language, culture and religion. Treaties and settlement of the land expanded and legislated other differences while the former ones diminished. Sometime in the sixties Canada removed the last of it's societies measures that excluded natives from parts of Canadian society. Today Native leaders in different parts of this country are seeking further division on the basis of the letter and hypothetical intent of old treaties both written and oral.

That is the history. The historical fault lies with both parties involved. This is true of the current situation as well. The differences today being that generally speaking language, culture, and religion are not a great factor anymore. Canada is a mosaic of many ethnic cultures and religions living together equally. Also, today a native chooses to carry the title and privileges of a first nations native. It isn't imposed on them.

First Nations individuals have the same rights and benefits as all other Canadians; the same tax benefits, the same pensions, EI, housing assistance, etc. For example, a First Nations individual who recieves subsidized housing, or other forms of social assistance is not getting any 'special treatment'. This is the same treatment that any Canadian could get from the government. I would like for someone to back up the claim that First Nations individuals recieve thousands of dollars from the government for free.

In some cases, various First Nations have additional rights and benefits that are provided for them based on the terms of their treaties or land-claims agreements. These additional benefits are, or were, negotiated in treaty or land-claims settlements. These land claims or treaties were made under the guiding principle of British common law: There can be no confiscation of land or property without compensation. I don't think that you can say that the treaties no longer have relevance just because you don't feel that the government should be paying out the negotiated benefits. In the case of most treaties, the governement needed the land for settlement, railroad, etc. The government negotiated a legal contract or treaty with the holders of the land (recognized as Nations). Those contract are still legal, and must continue to be honoured.

[shawnjohn]

I think it would be absolutely hilarious to see Indians kick white people out of their Calgary houses today and say "We'll give you our reserves to live on and send you to college for free".

Let's see how quickly people change their opinions about the "unjust benefits" that Indians recieve...

[Flashpoint]

As a Second Nation's citizen, I find the term "First Nation's" offensive.

It's like they think they're better n' me or somethin!

!!!!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by shawnjohn

I think it would be absolutely hilarious to see Indians kick white people out of their Calgary houses today and say "We'll give you our reserves to live on and send you to college for free".

Let's see how quickly people change their opinions about the "unjust benefits" that Indians recieve...

Thats exactly the problem.

I never kicked anyone out of their house and told them to go live on a reserve. I don't agree with what the government did.

I want to abolish the reserves.

The system is broken, and needs to be fixed.

[West Karma]

nm

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by West Karma

I agree - that is the point I was making back on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. The system is flawed and needs to be overhauled. Maybe it was good when it was implemented, but decades have passed - we have evolved - LET'S PUT EVERYONE ON THE SAME FIELD!!

It doesn't matter the race! Let's make changes or things will never get better!

BTW - Stop playing the race card! It really is sickening! I would like to think that most of the people on here are NOT racist! We are having a discussion about a serious problem in OUR country!

Great post, I agree 100%

[Azure]

Originally Posted by West Karma

I agree - that is the point I was making back on pages 1 and 2 of this thread. The system is flawed and needs to be overhauled. Maybe it was good when it was implemented, but decades have passed - we have evolved - LET'S PUT EVERYONE ON THE SAME FIELD!!

It doesn't matter the race! Let's make changes or things will never get better!

BTW - Stop playing the race card! It really is sickening! I would like to think that most of the people on here are NOT racist! We are having a discussion about a serious problem in OUR country!

Clearly you've never lived on a reserve. Racist.

On a more serious note, one would think that by creating an even playing field, we would be 'helping' the Natives.

[West Karma]

nm

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by West Karma

Sure...I had just found out my father got jump by a group of natives....a couple of Lysol drinking native bums that jumped 2 other innocent people. My tone was strong but that does not make me a racist! Man, people on this board are sure judgmental sitting all strong and proud in front of their computers.

Fotze, you must be a bright guy - Read my other posts since, does it really sound like I am a racist??? Take a hike if you think I am...

Man, why do I wish it was a couple of white guys that did this to my Dad? It would have created far more turmoil! Canada will never get better if this board is a broad section of what people in this country believe. Pretty sad!!

I'm out - this thread is brutal!! Your a racist, your not a racist, your perfect, you are not perfect. It's his fault, no it's her fault!!! Blagh, blagh, blagh!! No wonder Canada is where it is today!!!

RW

PS My dad knew they were drinking Lysol by the green foam coming out of their mouths...just thought I would add that!! I wouldn't want to offend any of you proper perfect model citizens with such a derogatory sterotype.

Haha, you sound like me in my Karma thread. Sometimes you just want to poke yourself in th eyes with a fork due to the political correctness eh? As the Bare naked ladies once said in a song "It's so PC it's killing me" lol.

[jayswin]

for the record, I could tell right away that you weren't being racist, but race is a sensative issue, so that's why people are so quick to claim racism when ever something is said. That's why the issue of natives in our country is really hard to discuss, because there are serious problems on those reserves, but many people consider it racist to point out these problems, or point out that there are problems with natives in the city as well.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by West Karma

My dad knew they were drinking Lysol by the green foam coming out of their mouths...just thought I would add that!!

How does your dad know that drinking Lysol leads to green foam coming out of your mouth? Does he know a lot of people that partake in Lysol?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Sigh. I was just telling stories. There are lots of drunk white bums as well, but they pay for their booze with their panhandlings, not gov't cheques.

Do you not realize its statements like this that make it hard for people to hear whatever other point you are trying to make?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That being said I don't think the term "Indian" is racist.

It's not up to you.

Fart why does it matter. If they don't want to be call Indians, I won't call them that. I'll use whatever word they want because it has no impact on me whatsoever. If 10 years from now they decide they don't want to be called Aboriginals - fine - I'll call them something else.

It just doesn't matter. And I don't know why people insist on trying to justify using a word that others find offensive.

Just use a different word.

[Azure]

They call themselves Indians. At least around here.

And then jump on you when YOU call them that.