What would you give up for Seguin?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Not a fricking chance in hell

In a deal for a quality player like Seguin, sure. But Gaudreau has a chance to be a special player and there is no way I give him up for a prospect like Khoklachev.

Kholchachov has a chance to be a special player as well.

To me seems like a similiar risk for each so if they like Kholcochev sure I have no problem with it but seems pretty lateral move to me.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

much better numbers? On one of the lowest scoring teams in the league (the Flames)?

Calgary was 11th best last season in goals for.

[BlackWallStreet]

I'd consider trading the captain for him

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by New Era

Seriously?



Seguin could be experiencing the success he is because he plays on a stacked team. Move him to another team where there is not the level of talent and his points likely take a substantial drop off. It would be a huge gamble to bring him in and think he was going to turn into a franchise player. If he isn't achieving that in Boston he certainly won't be here.
.

Or they could be holding him back playing on a team that plays the trap, limits his minutes, and doesn't get 1st line pp minutes, and on top of that he is playing out of position.

As well he is 21 years old and an athletes prime starts at 26-32 so all logic suggests he will get better.

He is three years older then monahan, klimchuck, and poirier, 2 years older then jankowski and gillies. He would fit in with our core group of youth players and instantly would be considered the flames best player today.

As for your franchise player comment, you do realize he is 21 right? Were the sedin's, iggy, naslund, datsyuk, zetterberg, yzerman, hull etc etc, franchise players at the age of 21? No and to make that statement that he isn't a franchise player yet means he certainly won't as a Flame is extremely short sighted.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by moon

Kholchachov has a chance to be a special player as well.

And what leads you to believe that? I'd like to know what you see in him particular. What are his exceptional skills, his weaknesses and so on. You must have a pretty good grasp on him to suggest he's a special player. One pre-emptive comment on your observation, one of the things I do before making that claim is watch a player, and the first thing I notice is the proper spelling of his name on the back of his jersey.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

Or they could be holding him back playing on a team that plays the trap, limits his minutes, and doesn't get 1st line pp minutes, and on top of that he is playing out of position.

As well he is 21 years old and an athletes prime starts at 26-32 so all logic suggests he will get better.

He is three years older then monahan, klimchuck, and poirier, 2 years older then jankowski and gillies. He would fit in with our core group of youth players and instantly would be considered the flames best player today.

As for your franchise player comment, you do realize he is 21 right? Were the sedin's, iggy, naslund, datsyuk, zetterberg, yzerman, hull etc etc, franchise players at the age of 21? No and to make that statement that he isn't a franchise player yet means he certainly won't as a Flame is extremely short sighted.

Seguin was top two in total ice time for forwards on the Bruins. He was 4th for average even strength time per game, only because of the Jagr addition late in the season. He was also second on the team for PP ice time per game. So the Bruins were not holding him back. The Bruins also are not a trap team, playing an aggressive forechecking game. Finally, Seguin was given opportunity to play center but is not good enough in the face off dot to beat out any of the centers on the roster.

I want to know how you define a franchise player, because almost all of the players you listed are not of the franchise variety. Quality players, but no where near franchise players. I don't see adding any of those players to any bottom feeding team and that team immediately becomes a playoff team or threat for the cup. And yes, true franchise players are that at 21. The latest true franchise player was hoisting the cup above his head at 21. Seguin is a very good player, but he isn't a franchise player. I'd take him on the Flames for certain, but not at the expense of any of our top prospects or high end assets, especially when we are only guaranteed five years of Seguin's service before his contract ends and he becomes a UFA. I would prefer we draft and develop our players so they have a sense of loyalty to our team.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by New Era

Seguin was top two in total ice time for forwards on the Bruins. He was 4th for average even strength time per game, only because of the Jagr addition late in the season. He was also second on the team for PP ice time per game. So the Bruins were not holding him back. The Bruins also are not a trap team, playing an aggressive forechecking game. Finally, Seguin was given opportunity to play center but is not good enough in the face off dot to beat out any of the centers on the roster.

I want to know how you define a franchise player, because almost all of the players you listed are not of the franchise variety. Quality players, but no where near franchise players. I don't see adding any of those players to any bottom feeding team and that team immediately becomes a playoff team or threat for the cup. And yes, true franchise players are that at 21. The latest true franchise player was hoisting the cup above his head at 21. Seguin is a very good player, but he isn't a franchise player. I'd take him on the Flames for certain, but not at the expense of any of our top prospects or high end assets, especially when we are only guaranteed five years of Seguin's service before his contract ends and he becomes a UFA. I would prefer we draft and develop our players so they have a sense of loyalty to our team.

Is this a joke? Are you trying to be ironic? Can you please name franchise players to me please? If you don't think iggy was a franchise player, or naslund or the sedins, or datsyuk, zetterberg etc etc, then I do not know what to tell you. Yes there are exceptions Crosby, Malkin, toews, ovechkin, but those are not franchise players those are generational talents.

As for your argument that some 21 year old franchise player just hoisted the cup, did you not realize then Seguin has been to the finals two times in three seasons, and won the cup in his rookie season.

As for ice time, his career average is 15 minutes per game... Where are you getting you numbers from? Last year he averaged 17 so no not first line minutes in the 21 minute range.

As for him not being good enough for center... Are you kidding? They have Bergeron and krejci that is the only reason he wasn't at center, not because he isn't good enough. Both of those centers are better then any center on the flames. Not to mention how many games did he play center? I am willing to bet it wasn't more then 15 games, which is much to small of a sample size to state that he can't play there, considering it took ovechkin half a season just to switch wings this season before he produced.

As for pp minutes can you please show me that info because I can't find it. And yes the bruins are a trap team.

FYI the flames would have 6 years control as he is signed to a six year deal

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

Is this a joke? Are you trying to be ironic? Can you please name franchise players to me please? If you don't think iggy was a franchise player, or naslund or the sedins, or datsyuk, zetterberg etc etc, then I do not know what to tell you. Yes there are exceptions Crosby, Malkin, toews, ovechkin, but those are not franchise players those are generational talents.

As for your argument that some 21 year old franchise player just hoisted the cup, did you not realize then Seguin has been to the finals two times in three seasons, and won the cup in his rookie season.

As for ice time, his career average is 15 minutes per game... Where are you getting you numbers from? Last year he averaged 17 so no not first line minutes in the 21 minute range.

As for him not being good enough for center... Are you kidding? They have Bergeron and krejci that is the only reason he wasn't at center, not because he isn't good enough. Both of those centers are better then any center on the flames. Not to mention how many games did he play center? I am willing to bet it wasn't more then 15 games, which is much to small of a sample size to state that he can't play there, considering it took ovechkin half a season just to switch wings this season before he produced.

As for pp minutes can you please show me that info because I can't find it. And yes the bruins are a trap team.

FYI the flames would have 6 years control as he is signed to a six year deal

There's this handy little site, that is obviously really obscure, called NHL.com. It has this page called "stats" where you can run reports and extract comparative data, including ice time and face offs, which is broken down to the nth degree and you get to see which player had the most opportunity in every situation imaginable. You should check it out as it is sometimes best to have data to support your wild claims or find out their validity before posting them.

On the franchise player front, I believe the Franchise player tag is grossly over used and was #######ized by the NFL, which has caused great confusion in its application. A franchise player, in my opinion, is a player that if added to any team in the NHL immediately makes them better to the point they are a solid playoff team or contender for the Stanley Cup. I see only one active player in the NHL that fits that bill, and that is Sidney Crosby. He was the last player to come along that I would say is a true franchise player. To clarify terms, I also do not think Crosby is a generational talent. He's a great player and could I proven any team in the league to the point they are a contender, but he is not a generational talent. I see generational talents as players who come in and alter the game with their play. Orr revolutionized the way players on the blue line played. Gretzky changed the game in almost every way imaginable. Lemieux altered the perspective on big players. Roy changed goaltending to where the standup goaltender does not exist anymore. These were generational talents. They changed the way every player that came after them played the game. I do not see any of them in the game today, even as good as Crosby is.

Each of the players you mentioned has value to the team they currently play for, and the fans have an emotional attachment to them, but if you took any one of them and dropped them on the Calgary Flames or the Florida Panthers are either of those teams a solid playoff team or contender for the Stanley Cup? No. It takes a lot more than any of those players. Heck, some of the players you mentioned play on the same team together, so they should be winning cup after cup. A team that has two franchise players should just roll over every other team, especially those that don't have a franchise player at all.

Getting to the Bruins style of play and why certain players are certain positions, if you can't see that the Bruins play a pressure forechecking game, or the superiority of players in certain positions, I can't help you. The Bruins beat up the opposition because they press the opposition defense and force turnovers. They don't give you a chance to setup and they are always attacking the puck. Again, you're going to have to point out where they trap and how they trap, because it wasn't evident unless they were protecting a lead late.

Seguin is a winger because he doesn't have the ability to play the center position better than anyone on the Bruins. Krejci, Bergeron, Campbell, Kelly, and even Peverley, to a certain extent, all play the center position better than Seguin. All of them are stronger positionally and better in the dot, with the exception of Campbell on face offs. Seguin was given opportunity to play center when he came into the league but he was not as effective as expected and moved to the wing to limit his weaknesses. A player with franchise talent at center does not get moved to the wing, nor play behind the any of the Bruins centers. When talking about first line centers the Bruins are a team that routinely comes up as a team lacking a true number one center, but having great depth of skilled pivots best suited to play in the number two role. A player with franchise talent should certainly be able to push his way past the likes of Campell, Peverley or Kelly. Seguin is a winger in the Bruins because that is where he is best suited in the NHL and where the Bruins feel he'll have the greatest success. Based on their track record of late, I'll go with their decision on how to use him.

Sorry, everyone, for the wall of text and the sarcasm in spots. Had to be done to get the points across.

[Vinny01]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=426888

"We have our list of centres we've identified and we've started that process and the ones we want to have conversations with. We also think there are still some opportunities to acquire centres by trade."

[GGG]

For me I would do a top 5 protected 2014 pick and Gaudreau for Seguin. That is the max I would give up. I would also be open to other combinations including roster players but in terms of prospects I would only give up Gaudreau and 1 other prospect.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by New Era

Seguin is a winger because he doesn't have the ability to play the center position better than anyone on the Bruins. Krejci, Bergeron, Campbell, Kelly, and even Peverley, to a certain extent, all play the center position better than Seguin. All of them are stronger positionally and better in the dot, with the exception of Campbell on face offs. Seguin was given opportunity to play center when he came into the league but he was not as effective as expected and moved to the wing to limit his weaknesses. A player with franchise talent at center does not get moved to the wing, nor play behind the any of the Bruins centers. When talking about first line centers the Bruins are a team that routinely comes up as a team lacking a true number one center, but having great depth of skilled pivots best suited to play in the number two role. A player with franchise talent should certainly be able to push his way past the likes of Campell, Peverley or Kelly. Seguin is a winger in the Bruins because that is where he is best suited in the NHL and where the Bruins feel he'll have the greatest success. Based on their track record of late, I'll go with their decision on how to use him.

Sorry, everyone, for the wall of text and the sarcasm in spots. Had to be done to get the points across.

Seguin is 21 years old. Agreed he is not a "Franchise Player" yet, but he definetly has "Franchise Player" potential. Writting him off as such, simply because he has yet to be able to push the likes of Krejci and Bergeron out of the top 2 centre spots on one of the best teams in the NHL at this young spot in his career is silly. Clearly the Bruins are having some issues with the young player, but the fact that he's been moved to a Wing position on a stacked team that has made two trips to the finals in 3 years does not lock Seguin's future path set in stone.

His career is far to young to suggest he is no longer a centre. Over his last 2 years, he's been a 0.75 point per game player. The Flames cannot afford to bare their prospect cupboards to get a guy like Seguin, but if they could acquire such a player, he would instantly become the Flames best shot at their next "Franchise Player" versus anyone we currently have in our system. If the Flames can find a way to get this player without giving up too many of our other prospects with potential, it's exactly the type of move a team in the Flames position needs to be making.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Seguin is 21 years old. Agreed he is not a "Franchise Player" yet, but he definetly has "Franchise Player" potential. Writting him off as such, simply because he has yet to be able to push the likes of Krejci and Bergeron out of the top 2 centre spots on one of the best teams in the NHL at this young spot in his career is silly. Clearly the Bruins are having some issues with the young player, but the fact that he's been moved to a Wing position on a stacked team that has made two trips to the finals in 3 years does not lock Seguin's future path set in stone.

His career is far to young to suggest he is no longer a centre. Over his last 2 years, he's been a 0.75 point per game player. The Flames cannot afford to bare their prospect cupboards to get a guy like Seguin, but if they could acquire such a player, he would instantly become the Flames best shot at their next "Franchise Player" versus anyone we currently have in our system. If the Flames can find a way to get this player without giving up too many of our other prospects with potential, it's exactly the type of move a team in the Flames position needs to be making.

I agree with you on Seguin. He would be an incredible addition. Would love to have him in a Flames uniform. Having said that, I would not give up a lot to get him. The Flames have some very solid depth now and those star players will come in the next draft or two. I don't see trading away our newly found depth, especially our top prospects, for Seguin as a step forward. If the Bruins think he has character issues, and the Flames are all about character, them I would prefer they stick with the guys they have and the character they have. Let the problem children play elsewhere.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

I think you are WAY over valuing Gaudreau, he isn't even a top 50 prospect in the NHL do to him being tiny 5'6 and light 150 lbs.

That's strange cause I have THN's Future Watch right here and lo and behold Gaudreau made their top 50 prospect list.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

Would any of you do a Gaudreau for a Khochlachev swap with the Bruins instead ?

Nope

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

I think you are WAY over valuing Gaudreau, he isn't even a top 50 prospect in the NHL do to him being tiny 5'6 and light 150 lbs. Name another NHLer that small? All the small guys have massive lower bodies, Gaudreau still looks like a twelve year old.

Yup, no small players with obscene skill have ever amounted to anything in the NHL.

And the very few who have were all stacked from the age of 17. 5'6 200 lb freaks. All of them from day one.

Feaster claims to have gotten calls from a plethora of teams wanting Gaudreau, including Stanely Cup Finalists everyone-must-be-big-Bruins. Must be something about him, no?

The last thing that is going to stop Gaudreau from being a star hockey player is his size.

[OzSome]

It's nuts that you even consider trading 2 of our fine young guys Sven Baertschi and a young prospect John Gaudreau. I can't believe how people are being negative about Gaudreau. I mean the guy paid for his travel to go to prospect camp here for the last two seasons and suddenly people think he will not sign with the Flames when the times comes? Baertschi and Gaudreau will be one of the future of this organization. So trading one or both is stupid. I think the Flames are in a rebuilding process. No thanks to Seguin unless the Bruins will pick up some of our vets. How about Backlund plus first round pick + 3rd round pick?

[Tinordi]

He's a nice player but not the kind of impact player most are making him out to be. Overrated is what I'm saying.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by OzSome

It's nuts that you even consider trading 2 of our fine young guys Sven Baertschi and a young prospect John Gaudreau. I can't believe how people are being negative about Gaudreau. I mean the guy paid for his travel to go to prospect camp here for the last two seasons and suddenly people think he will not sign with the Flames when the times comes? Baertschi and Gaudreau will be one of the future of this organization. So trading one or both is stupid. I think the Flames are in a rebuilding process. No thanks to Seguin unless the Bruins will pick up some of our vets. How about Backlund plus first round pick + 3rd round pick?

I was thinking Backlund, Cammalleri (half of his salary eaten) and a secondary prospect like Granlund. They get a proven vet for the year, a solid 3rd line center for now and the future, and a solid prospect for the future as well. Seguin is good, but he isn't worth selling the farm to get. Don't forget the Flames are taking on a $5+ million salary in the deal. That's a lot of money.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by New Era

There's this handy little site, that is obviously really obscure, called NHL.com. It has this page called "stats" where you can run reports and extract comparative data, including ice time and face offs, which is broken down to the nth degree and you get to see which player had the most opportunity in every situation imaginable. You should check it out as it is sometimes best to have data to support your wild claims or find out their validity before posting them.

On the franchise player front, I believe the Franchise player tag is grossly over used and was #######ized by the NFL, which has caused great confusion in its application. A franchise player, in my opinion, is a player that if added to any team in the NHL immediately makes them better to the point they are a solid playoff team or contender for the Stanley Cup. I see only one active player in the NHL that fits that bill, and that is Sidney Crosby. He was the last player to come along that I would say is a true franchise player. To clarify terms, I also do not think Crosby is a generational talent. He's a great player and could I proven any team in the league to the point they are a contender, but he is not a generational talent. I see generational talents as players who come in and alter the game with their play. Orr revolutionized the way players on the blue line played. Gretzky changed the game in almost every way imaginable. Lemieux altered the perspective on big players. Roy changed goaltending to where the standup goaltender does not exist anymore. These were generational talents. They changed the way every player that came after them played the game. I do not see any of them in the game today, even as good as Crosby is.

Each of the players you mentioned has value to the team they currently play for, and the fans have an emotional attachment to them, but if you took any one of them and dropped them on the Calgary Flames or the Florida Panthers are either of those teams a solid playoff team or contender for the Stanley Cup? No. It takes a lot more than any of those players. Heck, some of the players you mentioned play on the same team together, so they should be winning cup after cup. A team that has two franchise players should just roll over every other team, especially those that don't have a franchise player at all.

Getting to the Bruins style of play and why certain players are certain positions, if you can't see that the Bruins play a pressure forechecking game, or the superiority of players in certain positions, I can't help you. The Bruins beat up the opposition because they press the opposition defense and force turnovers. They don't give you a chance to setup and they are always attacking the puck. Again, you're going to have to point out where they trap and how they trap, because it wasn't evident unless they were protecting a lead late.

Seguin is a winger because he doesn't have the ability to play the center position better than anyone on the Bruins. Krejci, Bergeron, Campbell, Kelly, and even Peverley, to a certain extent, all play the center position better than Seguin. All of them are stronger positionally and better in the dot, with the exception of Campbell on face offs. Seguin was given opportunity to play center when he came into the league but he was not as effective as expected and moved to the wing to limit his weaknesses. A player with franchise talent at center does not get moved to the wing, nor play behind the any of the Bruins centers. When talking about first line centers the Bruins are a team that routinely comes up as a team lacking a true number one center, but having great depth of skilled pivots best suited to play in the number two role. A player with franchise talent should certainly be able to push his way past the likes of Campell, Peverley or Kelly. Seguin is a winger in the Bruins because that is where he is best suited in the NHL and where the Bruins feel he'll have the greatest success. Based on their track record of late, I'll go with their decision on how to use him.

Sorry, everyone, for the wall of text and the sarcasm in spots. Had to be done to get the points across.

Haha so you only think there is one franchise player in the entire NHL? Ok that is where we have a huge difference of opinion. If you win an art Ross, are named as a league MVP, etc that tells me you are a franchise player. We just have different definitions, no wonder Seguin isn't a franchise player to you apparently he has to be as good as Crosby or better.... Let's put it this way, not one of our prospects that we have now will ever be a franchise player under your definition. He'll there might not be another franchise player under your definition for 20 years...

Lol Seguin isn't as good as Campbell and Kelly, and peverly at center..... I don't know if I can help you man, the reason why Seguin is on the wing is to have him in the top 6 forwards, they want him playing with talent and scoring goals, not have him as a shut down third liner.

Good point about using NHL.com, yet still no comment on his 17 minutes a game... That is 2 to 4 minutes less then most other top line players...

Conclusion: your definition on franchise players crazy that there is only 1 in the NHL and will be for a very long time, Seguin is on the wing because they want him in the top 6 due to his talent, not because he is a worse center then Chris Kelly and Gregory Campbell, and lastly you still didn't comment on why Seguin won't improve his point production getting 2-4 more minutes a game on the ice if he were a flame...

[Badgers Nose]

Its funny that both sides are right in this debate.