Healthcare in America

[Flash Walken]

If only those people on medicaid worked as hard as Displaced Flames Fan, they'd have the opportunity to pay out the anus for a semblance of healthcare.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

so have the federal government establish guidelines and let the states manage how it's administered. my point is that arguing against the very idea of universal healthcare strictly on the basis that the US federal government is incompetent is ridiculous

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't think anyone has done that.

Yeah, I don't think that's true.

Originally Posted by Azure

Considering how incompetent the US government is, are you all really surprised that Americans don't want them running a universal health care system?

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

All I know is that given what my family is going through at the moment I am damn glad I have the insurance I do as opposed to whatever disaster of a plan the US government will come up with.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yeah, I don't think that's true.

I was very clear that I was speaking only for my particular situation.

That aside, the statement you quoted speaks to a distrust of the government's ability to pull off universal health care but does NOT suggest the idea is worthless because of it.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If only those people on medicaid worked as hard as Displaced Flames Fan, they'd have the opportunity to pay out the anus for a semblance of healthcare.

Hilarious. What is the relevance of this comment to the discussion?

I'll explain my comment again though I am sure you will ignore it. When choosing a career, I worked very hard to ensure that I got a job with excellent health benefits. It was an extremely important factor.

What part of that demonizes me exactly?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Hilarious. What is the relevance of this comment to the discussion?

I'll explain my comment again though I am sure you will ignore it. When choosing a career, I worked very hard to ensure that I got a job with excellent health benefits. It was an extremely important factor.

What part of that demonizes me exactly?

I'm talking about the absurdity of the notion, not your individual work ethic, choices or conduct.

My point is that even WITH that dedication, hard work and forethought, you and your family are still vulnerable to the trappings of the American Healthcare System. How difficult must it be on those without the benefit of your lifestyle?

What if you didn't work that hard, make those choices or suffered a career setback? Would that be fair to your children to be denied basic healthcare because their dad is a deadbeat, or victim of circumstance, unlucky or plain 'ol doomed from the start?

That, to me, is what should be the infuriating part.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm talking about the absurdity of the notion, not your individual work ethic, choices or conduct.

My point is that even WITH that dedication, hard work and forethought, you and your family are still vulnerable to the trappings of the American Healthcare System. How difficult must it be on those without the benefit of your lifestyle?

What if you didn't work that hard, make those choices or suffered a career setback? Would that be fair to your children to be denied basic healthcare because their dad is a deadbeat, or victim of circumstance, unlucky or plain 'ol doomed from the start?

That, to me, is what should be the infuriating part.

Dude, all I said is that I was grateful for what I have right now given what my family is currently enduring medically. It is a pretty good situation for me. We will survive this financially because of it. The notion of should I have to pay for any of it at all isn't even in the equation because that's not the world I live in. This is my reality.

NOWHERE have I indicated that what I have right now is good enough for everyone or that everyone has the opportunity to get it. Nowhere.

I said I worked hard to ensure that I had this for my family and suddenly I am trampling down the underprivleged, spitting in their faces and telling them to get jobs????

That's what it feels like you and a couple of others have taken from my comments. Pretty unfair.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Dude, all I said is that I was grateful for what I have right now given what my family is currently enduring medically. It is a pretty good situation for me. We will survive this financially because of it. The notion of should I have to pay for any of it at all isn't even in the equation because that's not the world I live in. This is my reality.

NOWHERE have I indicated that what I have right now is good enough for everyone or that everyone has the opportunity to get it. Nowhere.

I said I worked hard to ensure that I had this for my family and suddenly I am trampling down the underprivleged, spitting in their faces and telling them to get jobs????

That's what it feels like you and a couple of others have taken from my comments. Pretty unfair.

Well, I can't speak for the others, but I think it's pretty nonsensical that a federal employee that relies on the government bureaucracy for his job (and by extension, his healthcare), would be so skeptical of his employers ability to not only run his profession, but that of healthcare too.

Your comments about not-paying into Medicare strike me as being exceedingly odd in light of the other statements you've made about your hard work etc, paying off.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Dude, all I said is that I was grateful for what I have right now given what my family is currently enduring medically. It is a pretty good situation for me. We will survive this financially because of it. The notion of should I have to pay for any of it at all isn't even in the equation because that's not the world I live in. This is my reality.

NOWHERE have I indicated that what I have right now is good enough for everyone or that everyone has the opportunity to get it. Nowhere.

I said I worked hard to ensure that I had this for my family and suddenly I am trampling down the underprivleged, spitting in their faces and telling them to get jobs????

That's what it feels like you and a couple of others have taken from my comments. Pretty unfair.

I don't think anything Flash said insinuates that at all. I think the point is that you're one of the lucky ones, and that the current system leaves far too many people out in the cold.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well, I can't speak for the others, but I think it's pretty nonsensical that a federal employee that relies on the government bureaucracy for his job (and by extension, his healthcare), would be so skeptical of his employers ability to not only run his profession, but that of healthcare too.

Your comments about not-paying into Medicare strike me as being exceedingly odd in light of the other statements you've made about your hard work etc, paying off.

First of all, the USPS is a self sustained entity. We get exactly ZERO monetary support from the Federal Government. It is Federally regulated, but not supported. What you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that all Federal employees should have complete faith in everything the government undertakes?

I don't recall saying anything about not paying into Medicare. I don't know what you're talking about on that one.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't think anything Flash said insinuates that at all. I think the point is that you're one of the lucky ones, and that the current system leaves far too many people out in the cold.

And I haven't once aruged otherwise, nor have I argued there should be no change because I am one of the lucky ones.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't think anything Flash said insinuates that at all. I think the point is that you're one of the lucky ones, and that the current system leaves far too many people out in the cold.

This.

How many in the states can afford good health care, or have jobs that provide good health care.

I would suggest it is less than a majority.

I have taken my daughter, during an emergancy situation, to both a US and Canadian hospital. There was no difference in the level of care or urgency at which it was provided. In short you could not tell them apart....untill you were leaving and the bill showed up.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't recall saying anything about not paying into Medicare. I don't know what you're talking about on that one.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I have no idea what this comment was supposed to mean.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

This is true, but it is also true that there is an outlfow of income tax revenue to these folks despite their lack of income.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Really? When did Canada start covering advil, tylenol, etc.?

Actually if you are low income it does, technically I am destitute as my fostering income is tax free, I am therefore entiteled to my prescriptions free although I have never availed myself of this, and yes doctors will write you a script for tylenol or pepto if you are poor and the doctor is sympathetic.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Maybe I misunderstood, but I have no idea what this comment was supposed to mean.

Oh, ok.

I don't want to guess at the income level where the tax revenue becomes and outflow rather than an inflow, but a large portion of Americans actually pay zero income tax while receiving an income tax refund. Of course it depends on how many dependants as to how much one might receive.

I know that makes no sense, but it is true. These are just abritrary numbers I'm about to use.

Joe the Plumber and his family of 5 could have an income of $27,000....owe $0 for Income Tax.....AND get a 'refund' of $3500. That doesn't mean they paid $3500 in and are getting it back. They can actually pay a negative income tax.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I know that makes no sense, but it is true. These are just abritrary numbers I'm about to use.

This makes complete sense to me, I guess that's where we differ.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This makes complete sense to me, I guess that's where we differ.

What makes complete sense to you? We differ in that you actually did understand my hypothetical while I wasn't sure I was describing it well enough?

Confused.

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Oh, ok.

I don't want to guess at the income level where the tax revenue becomes and outflow rather than an inflow, but a large portion of Americans actually pay zero income tax while receiving an income tax refund. Of course it depends on how many dependants as to how much one might receive.

I know that makes no sense, but it is true. These are just abritrary numbers I'm about to use.

Joe the Plumber and his family of 5 could have an income of $27,000....owe $0 for Income Tax.....AND get a 'refund' of $3500. That doesn't mean they paid $3500 in and are getting it back. They can actually pay a negative income tax.

You're referring to Earned Income Credit when you're talking about refunds on no federal tax liability. I assume you realize that all EIC recipients pay regressive taxes like sales tax on clothes and property tax (from landlords who pass the cost to the renters) as examples.

EIC is intended to mitigate those types of regressive taxes that affect EIC recipients disproportionately on the taxes they pay on basic needs.

IMO, the most egregious of all taxes that EIC receipents pay into is the 15% FICA/payroll tax which helps pay for medicare and social security up to the cap of ~$110K of income in 2012. Though that is slightly less since Congress passed a FICA tax holiday for the last two years.

The unfair part is any income over the cap of ~$110K is FICA free which means anyone lucky enough to make more than $110K is saving that the SS portion of the FICA tax to infinity. That is the very definition of regressive.

And the real kicker is since Reagan, the FICA contributions are used to pay for current government expenditures to make up for the lost revenue from those same Reagan tax cuts.

I suggest if you removed the FICA cap, that would go a long way to address the path to a solvent and, at the very least, a fairer funding mechanism for SS.

The Medicare portion of FICA is ridiculously underfunded by all FICA payers at a unsustainable 1.5% considering the benefits doled out.

I pay my full FICA to the cap and get almost another $2K in FICA savings while the rest of you schelps making less than $110K including the working poor are essentially subsidizing my full amount of SS and free medicare at 65.

Fair in your books, right?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What makes complete sense to you? We differ in that you actually did understand my hypothetical while I wasn't sure I was describing it well enough?

Confused.

It makes sense to me that people living on, under or near the poverty line shouldn't pay income tax and should receive assistance from the rest of society to ensure their continued health and safety in hopes that one day that income tax imbalance will be made up because those people/that family have access to things like education rather than becoming even more dependent (and expensive) wards of the state.

It makes so much sense to me I don't even give it a second thought.

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

This is true, but it is also true that there is an outlfow of income tax revenue to these folks despite their lack of income.

I don't have a problem with that either. Even benefitted from it as a young guy with a family. What I do have a problem with is politicians telling me that these same people are paying a disproportionate amount of taxes AND have no health care available to them.

Both are lies. I like honesty.

I like honesty too but can you tell me who is saying "these people are both over taxed and have no healthcare available"?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Azure

The overwhelming majority of Americans that I know who are against the US government running a universal health care program are against it because they honestly don't think the US government can actually run it properly without causing a massive screwup.

If the whole system is reset, then it might work. The way it currently is? No way in hell.

I have to disagree. Most Americans I talk with don't want a Universal HC system because they hate, absolutely loathe, people getting things for free. They do not want to be paying into taxes that are going to pay for an illegal Mexican and their families or some welfare case's HC. IMO, that's why they are against it.