11-10-2016, 12:24 PM
|
#1001
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Well okay, but what's fast enough then? How many deaths/year to police brutality should BLM accept before they protest? I know that's a ridiculous loaded question and I don't expect you to answer but try to see it from their perspective.
|
I would suggest they should accept none. I think they should protest. I think the form that protest has taken, and the rhetoric that's emerged from the movement, has been not only frequently apalling, but completely counter-productive and alienates many people who are in principle sympathetic to the end result that BLM wants, which is justice system reform including reform of police forces.
As for what's fast enough for social change? As fast as we can reasonably manage without simultaneously producing negative outcomes, without triggering the sort of disaster we're in now. Though I once again want to emphasize that I'm not saying this is all the result of, or entirely a blowback against, the social justice left. But to borrow the sentiment from Van Jones on Tuesday, this is a part of it, and it should be talked about.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:27 PM
|
#1002
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
|
That's just blaming the victim though.
Saying "What did you expect? Being so anti-racism, and anti-bigotry, and forcing (ugh) inclusiveness and promoting love over hate? Of course people are going to hate you!"
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:29 PM
|
#1003
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland State House, Annapolis
|
Another name being touted for Treasury Secretary? Jamie Dimon. So those "Don't vote Hillary and the global banking elite ads" are already looking like the funniest ads of all-time. Poor rust belt and middle class voters, they are in for a rough ride.
__________________
"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:30 PM
|
#1004
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
If Trump cares so little about the gay community that he would pick a virulent homophobe to represent him on his ticket, I don't know if that says the gay community will be 'better off'.
LIke if he picked David Duke as his VP, would black people be better off with Trump as president? I'm not sure you can make that argument.
|
Go watch his convention speech. There is a hilarious awkward point where he supports Gays and the crowd cheers ackwardly and he says something like I'm glad to here you guys cheer that.
He is the most socially liberal republican president ever. How it plays out behind him I don't know but Trump is likely better than any other option the republicans had on the LGBT front.
|
|
|
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:31 PM
|
#1005
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
|
Yay. Now the victim blaming card is on the table. This thread is getting boring with the same, tired circular arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Erick Estrada For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:31 PM
|
#1006
|
|
Retired
|
Michael Moore weighed in before the election. I hadn't read this until today. He's somewhat right:
“He is saying the things to people who are hurting,” Moore said. “It’s why every beaten down, forgotten, nameless stiff who used to be part of what was called the ‘middle class’ loves Trump. He is the human Molotov Cocktail they’ve been waiting for. The human hand grenade they can legally throw at the system which stole their lives from them. On November 8, the dispossessed will walk into the voting booth, be handed a ballot, close the curtain and take that lever and put a big f—king ‘X’ in the box by the name of the man who has threatened to up-end and overturn the very system that has ruined their lives: Donald J Trump.”
“Trump’s election is going to be the biggest ‘f—k you’ ever recorded in human history,” Moore said. “And it will feel good.”
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:31 PM
|
#1007
|
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
Go watch his convention speech. There is a hilarious awkward point where he supports Gays and the crowd cheers ackwardly and he says something like I'm glad to here you guys cheer that.
He is the most socially liberal republican president ever. How it plays out behind him I don't know but Trump is likely better than any other option the republicans had on the LGBT front.
|
I definitely agree with everything in your post.
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:32 PM
|
#1008
|
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Victoria, BC
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
Go watch his convention speech. There is a hilarious awkward point where he supports Gays and the crowd cheers ackwardly and he says something like I'm glad to here you guys cheer that.
He is the most socially liberal republican president ever. How it plays out behind him I don't know but Trump is likely better than any other option the republicans had on the LGBT front.
|
Which is offset by his VP supporting shock therapy to turn gays straight, as well as religious freedom to discriminate.
|
|
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Drak For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:33 PM
|
#1009
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT
That's just blaming the victim though.
Saying "What did you expect? Being so anti-racism, and anti-bigotry, and forcing (ugh) inclusiveness and promoting love over hate? Of course people are going to hate you!"
|
This is a motte and bailey argument. Opposing racism and bigotry and favouring inclusiveness is not my criticism of the left. I thought I was pretty clear that my issue is not with the ends, but with the means.
Additionally, I myself think people should be opposed to racism and bigotry, and in favour of inclusiveness and love over hate. That is frankly incredibly obvious. Suggesting that I'd think otherwise isn't a very good way to continue conversations.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:37 PM
|
#1010
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
I would suggest they should accept none. I think they should protest. I think the form that protest has taken, and the rhetoric that's emerged from the movement, has been not only frequently apalling, but completely counter-productive and alienates many people who are in principle sympathetic to the end result that BLM wants, which is justice system reform including reform of police forces.
|
Okay, but again, look at it from their perspective. These are people that are terrified that they and the people they care about can be assaulted and killed without legal recourse at any moment. Do you honestly think if you were in that situation that your response would be "Aw shucks, better take this up democratically through the same system that keeps perpetuating this crap?" BLM started in what 2014 or 2015, a full 30+ years after the Rodney King riots? How much progress was made over those 30 years in the area of police brutality? Do you not see how the peaceful and legislative/democratic avenues can look completely ineffective to these people?
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:38 PM
|
#1011
|
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Victoria, BC
|
Probably somewhat obvious but I'll ask anyway. How does the Trump brand play out now that he's won the election? Is this a temporary positive for his family's companies? Or has he done irreparable damage via his extremely negative campaign and political divisiveness? At least half the country and a large portion of the world will certainly boycott his associated brands.
An obvious question - how much advantage does he take of the highest office to help himself and his ventures? I think it's safe to say there will be some shenanigans going on now that he has serious power.
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:39 PM
|
#1012
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
|
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to PsYcNeT For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:41 PM
|
#1013
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Okay, but again, look at it from their perspective. These are people that are terrified that they and the people they care about can be assaulted and killed without legal recourse at any moment. Do you honestly think if you were in that situation that your response would be "Aw shucks, better take this up democratically through the same system that keeps perpetuating this crap?"
|
No, I just said they should protest, which I guess is part of taking it up democratically (I don't think anarchy is a viable solution to anything). But once you've protested, got eyes on your issue, and you've got a microphone to talk into that's going to get on the news, what you say into that microphone matters. On the basis of how you argue for your points, people will either adopt your message, or recoil. And if you tell them, effectively, "the problem is white supremacy, and you're either with us on this or you're a racist piece of garbage", they're far more likely to recoil.
Quote:
|
BLM started in what 2014 or 2015, a full 30+ years after the Rodney King riots? How much progress was made over those 30 years in the area of police brutality?
|
I don't actually know. I don't think there are good stats on this, which is part of the problem we face - it's hard to know how to solve a very widespread problem that you don't have a detailed understanding of. But I do think that creating narrow tribes and telling people that they're either with you or you're the evil enemy is a recipe not just for failure but for utter disaster.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:42 PM
|
#1014
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drak
Which is offset by his VP supporting shock therapy to turn gays straight, as well as religious freedom to discriminate.
|
But so do most of the republicans. It's not like Cruz, Rubio, Kasich would have been better. Trump picked a VP based on the map and the evangelical base and someone who would say yes. I don't think it shows what he will do on LGBT issues.
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:42 PM
|
#1015
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
|
Holding a mirror up to prejudice doesn't excuse increased prejudice.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:44 PM
|
#1016
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT
|
Really showing those white, regressive leftists!
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:45 PM
|
#1017
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Really showing those white, regressive leftists!
|
I feel like you guys are the two happiest people in this thread. Everything you've ever wanted is coming true.
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:45 PM
|
#1018
|
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT
|
I think that Trump needs to get out in front of this to try and contain the mess he created in activating and legitimizing these people.
|
|
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:46 PM
|
#1019
|
|
Basement Chicken Choker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
|
One side-effect of a Supreme Court who wants to seriously claw back federal powers might be the eventual balkanization of the states into mostly independent jurisdictions, and maybe even another try at secession if the trend towards decentralization is allowed to go on for long enough.
Who mentioned Cascadia? Let's do it!
__________________
Better educated sadness than oblivious joy.
|
|
|
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jammies For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
11-10-2016, 12:46 PM
|
#1020
|
|
Franchise Player
|
I just like how the word "semantics" has apparently been re-defined to mean "nuance that doesn't entirely align with my world view".
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
I think that Trump needs to get out in front of this to try and contain the mess he created in activating and legitimizing these people.
|
Yup. He doesn't need them to vote for him anymore. I think this will probably die down relatively quickly, but he'd do well to continue making speeches on this point.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:06 AM.
|
|
