LSE: War on Drugs a Global Failure

[polak]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

You're kidding yourself if you think people "handle" cocaine just fine.

People handle cocaine just fine like people "handle" booze just fine.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

You're kidding yourself if you think people "handle" cocaine just fine.

Yeah, but is there that much difference between someone who doesn't handle cocaine well vs. someone who doesn't handle booze well?

[Zulu29]

The War on drugs is a failure. A war by definition has a winner and a loser. It's not something stuck in perpetuity. The west has been declaring "war" on its own citizens for too long with this. If heroin was legal tomorrow would everyone go shoot up? No. Do the current laws stop users of heroin from using? No. Drugs will always be around, but who do you want controlling them? Organized crime or government and business? Cue the "government is organized crime" jokes.

Cigarette use has been dropping steadily, why? Education. This can work for controlled substances as well IMO. This is a health and morality issue more than it is a law enforcement issue. Frankly I feel law enforcement resources should be put back to public safety rather than enforcing health and morality issues.

People will ask about impaired driving, open use of drugs etc. The laws are already in place to deal with this. Police would still enforce impaired driving by drug. Drinking in public is ticket able, so would using drugs in public. If you pass out from too much booze in public you get taken to the police station, hospital or detox. Could work for drug users too.

The amount of court time and police resources freed up would be immense. More money could b put into treatment and education.

My 2 cents.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

How is it hyperbole?

The government right now sells you cigarettes. You know that thing that causes cancer and leads to a horrible painful death? And they profit off of it. What's to stop them from profiting from cocaine? If you guys want to legalize it I see nothing stopping them from selling it at the 7-11.

That's not the point. The people who want it will get it. I don't want to do herion, legal or not. If heroin was available at 7-11 I wouldn't buy it because I don't want to be addicted to heroin, just the same way I don't buy cigarettes.

the point is that the government WILL profit off of it, rather than spending money trying to stop it (which they never will). Would you rather the funds for drugs went to cartels and crime lords, or back into any variety of government programs?

Colorado brought in $14 mil worth of taxes in the first month that weed was legal. Not to mention the sprouts of new "clean" businesses revolving around it (selling it in foods and what not).

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, but is there that much difference between someone who doesn't handle cocaine well vs. someone who doesn't handle booze well?

That's the rub I guess. I've seen careers and lives spiral out of control from both. I would say more research needs to be done to determine the full cost to society. Cocaine is strange because it is only produced in a handful of countries, so I'm not even sure what could be done here without a concerted global effort.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That's the rub I guess. I've seen careers and lives spiral out of control from both. I would say more research needs to be done to determine the full cost to society. Cocaine is strange because it is only produced in a handful of countries, so I'm not even sure what could be done here without a concerted global effort.

I don't know. From what I've read about the production process for cocaine, the hardest part is finding a place to grow coca plants. I imagine you'd be able to set-up greenhouses for this, and I'm sure there are parts of BC that would temperate enough to grow them naturally.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That's not the point. The people who want it will get it. I don't want to do herion, legal or not. If heroin was available at 7-11 I wouldn't buy it because I don't want to be addicted to heroin, just the same way I don't buy cigarettes.

the point is that the government WILL profit off of it, rather than spending money trying to stop it (which they never will). Would you rather the funds for drugs went to cartels and crime lords, or back into any variety of government programs?

Colorado brought in $14 mil worth of taxes in the first month that weed was legal. Not to mention the sprouts of new "clean" businesses revolving around it (selling it in foods and what not).

Hey, I'm all for legalizing weed. I smoke it from time to time, I don't see the harm in weed other than maybe a few late night stops at 7-11. But nothing will make me want to legalize or even decriminalize drugs like Meth and Heroine.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That's the rub I guess. I've seen careers and lives spiral out of control from both. I would say more research needs to be done to determine the full cost to society. Cocaine is strange because it is only produced in a handful of countries, so I'm not even sure what could be done here without a concerted global effort.

Thats the key with all of this. There will always be people who can't handle these types of substances and should stay as far away from them as they can.

The difference is, I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to seek help with an alcohol addiction then it is with an addiction to an illegal substance like cocaine. Should it be?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That's the rub I guess. I've seen careers and lives spiral out of control from both. I would say more research needs to be done to determine the full cost to society. Cocaine is strange because it is only produced in a handful of countries, so I'm not even sure what could be done here without a concerted global effort.

But you'll NEVER eliminate it. There will always be people looking to use cocaine. I won't go out and do coke tomorrow because of my personal beliefs and expectations of my profession. Some people might. Wouldn't you rather have that person who's life is spiralling out of control have access to more services for substance abuse than end up with a criminal conviction, possibly in prison?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Hey, I'm all for legalizing weed. I smoke it from time to time, I don't see the harm in weed other than maybe a few late night stops at 7-11. But nothing will make me want to legalize or even decriminalize drugs like Meth and Heroine.

Why not?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That's the rub I guess. I've seen careers and lives spiral out of control from both. I would say more research needs to be done to determine the full cost to society. Cocaine is strange because it is only produced in a handful of countries, so I'm not even sure what could be done here without a concerted global effort.

You pay the Colombian and Bolivian governments to buy it directly from the farmers.

The entire yearly Afghan crop of heroin could have been purchased directly from the farmers for something like two billion dollars a year. The estimated yearly costs for the war on drugs for enforcement and incarceration is like $40 billion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

lol, the russian boogeyman.

Come on captain, you aren't falling victim to these old wives tales are you?

People huff glue and gasoline too, and meth in and of itself is quite toxic.

You think if you can go to the pharmacy to get your high grade heroin you'll forego that to go to an alley to get your low-grade puddle water ####?

For an addict on the lower side of the econmic scale, they will, or it there's a mix counter that's giving you a better high for less absolutely.

The hoops you are jumping through are making me dizzy here.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When you smoked, did shop for cigarettes at convenience stores or off the back of a truck on a native reserve?

I go to a convience store, because its easy for me to get to and it feeds my addiction to tobacco, the convenience store pretty much enables my habit through easy access.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I go to a convience store, because its easy for me to get to and it feeds my addiction to tobacco, the convenience store pretty much enables my habit through easy access.

Exactly. People can grow tomatoes but how many do that vs go to the grocery store because of convenience?

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

But you'll NEVER eliminate it. There will always be people looking to use cocaine. I won't go out and do coke tomorrow because of my personal beliefs and expectations of my profession. Some people might. Wouldn't you rather have that person who's life is spiralling out of control have access to more services for substance abuse than end up with a criminal conviction, possibly in prison?

Hey man, I support legalization of these things. I'm just musing about all the different problems to get to that point. People have asked me why can't we synthesize cocaine? Well we can, it's just tough little molecule to synthesize. It's more economical to extract it from the plant.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

The amount of court time and police resources freed up would be immense. More money could b put into treatment and education.

My 2 cents.

And on top of that you would have to imagine there would be a significant drop in crime to boot.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm fine with legalizing Cocaine.

Coke is a lot closer to MDMA, Booze and Smokes then to the other two you mentioned.

Not to mention the cutting agents used have more severe long term effects than the drug itself.. That would cease.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

How is it hyperbole?

The government right now sells you cigarettes. You know that thing that causes cancer and leads to a horrible painful death? And they profit off of it. What's to stop them from profiting from cocaine? If you guys want to legalize it I see nothing stopping them from selling it at the 7-11.

In fact, governments do not profit from tobacco sales or use. On the contrary, nearly every province in Canada is currently involved in massive litigation seeking to recover damages for their losses caused by tobacco use.

[Itse]

Somebody wanted a citation for the benefits of drug legalization.

http://content.time.com/time/health/...893946,00.html

Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success,"

[Itse]

Here's a longer article explaining more about the details and background. It gives a slightly more complicated picture.

Also, the Portuguese solution isn't legalization, but decriminalization, which is different.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-891060.html

[Flash Walken]

Thanks, itse, but evidence means nothing in this conversation. See this thread as an example.

People are uncomfortable with it and are unable to use the evidence in self-reflection, instead choosing to redouble their efforts in the face of mounting contrary evidence.