[Trade] Flames trade Tanev (double retention) to Dallas for 2nd, cond. 3rd, Grushnikov

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

To me Grushnikov is the key to if it’s a good trade or not. Stats say he is nothing special but we’ll see

Also it’s looking like the Flames don’t do retention is true. Otherwise what the hell Conroy is saving the retention for?

Nothing better than a rush to negativity with bad intel!

[1_Flames_Fan]

After hearing Marek refer to Grushnikov as a "nasty piece of business" multiple times I'm definitely more excited. Welcome to the Flames Artem.

[Flamesfan05]

I read a pre draft scouting report and his ceiling at that time was top 4

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No, but where they rank is irrelevant.

Pospisil was ranked 21st last year,
In 2019 Wolf was ranked 18th
In 2017 Ruzicka 22nd
In 2016 Mangiapane was 9th and Hathaway 20th
In 2015 Kylington was 10th
In 2014 Ferland was 14th

Where guys rank isn't what matters. What matters is having more fish in the pond so you are more likely pull out some trophies.

The fact that Grushnikov will probably be in the 10-12 range for the Flames isn't an insult to him, it's a reflection that the Flames have built a pretty decent, and growing, prospect pool. If 3 or 4 of them make the team that's pretty good.

But then consider:
Zary, Pelletier and Pospisil already have
Wolf and Coronato are just a matter of time
Kuznetsov, Solovyov and Schwindt have all had a taste and all have a (small) chance
And you still have Honzek Morin, Brzustewicz, Suniev, Poirier and Grushnikov as prospects with a good to great chance.
Plus any out-of-nowhere posiibilities from down the list

Saying that ranking doesn't matter doesn't make a lot of sense. They are ranked for a reason. But sure you have more bullets in the chamber, some just have a lower probability to hit. When I read things like "profile that virtually never translates to the NHL" it's pretty much a definition of a throw in, or a long shot.

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

How could you forget the 1st?

I have selective memory good sir. My point was, that Hamonic trade was seen as a big time overpayment.

Reality. Tanev is a mid 30s, oft injured defenseman, who many can't afford at full salary and likely won't re-sign. Full stop.

The market was obviously not there to get the 1st they tried holding out for, but instead, get essentially two second rounders and potentially a 3rd. Draft capital is nice, yes. But now the Flames have a chosen 2nd rounder in their system, who they identified and did their homework at the time of his draft, that is in their system and they know exactly who they have. If you're led to believe Conroy, Dallas's GM had to really bend to give him up. Regardless, we have a guy who we would have likely drafted at some point this or next year, but is already 2-3 years seasoned and will be ready closer to when we want to finally come out of this.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Saying that ranking doesn't matter doesn't make a lot of sense. They are ranked for a reason. But sure you have more bullets in the chamber, some just have a lower probability to hit. When I read things like "profile that virtually never translates to the NHL" it's pretty much a definition of a throw in, or a long shot.

Rankings are snapshots in time. And progression isn't linear. The rankings have far less correlation with eventual success than you would think - considering that it should be relatively straight-forward to pick which guys are the most likely to make it.

But it simply isn't the case.

If you make your assessment, based on a single thing you read ("profile that virtually never translates to the NHL") then that is on you.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This 100%.

Offer: 1st round pick
Bid: 2nd round pick

Timeline: 5 weeks

Result: Somewhere between a 1st and 2nd round pick.

Sort of landed in the expected space didn't it?

Right now the Dallas 2nd round pick is slotted at #60 closer to a 3rd round pick. Grushnikov was drafted #48 OA in 2021.

why were the flames not interested in retaining cap space and getting the 4th round pick for the 2023-24 cap space? They are looking at 7M deadline cap space or more. Cap friendly shows them retaining tanev's 2.25. There is only 212K potential in bonuses

Are the Flames looking to take on cap space at the deadline? Maybe part of the Petterson trade? Or will they eat the space to make Hanifin/Markstrom more doable? taking back a bad contract as well a retain cap?

[Flamescuprun2018]

Giving Conroy and organization the benefit of the doubt here about Grushnikov. Intriguing writeup by Sandman before his draft. Interesting tweet from a scout to Jeff Marek who felt it was a shrewd move.

Seems to be falling in 2021 redraft (now 102, when Dallas drafted at 48).

Source: https://theathletic.com/4947469/2023...eniers-hughes/

I will also be buying Wranglers tickets to watch him in March.

Full buy-in from me with franchise direction. This organization has demonstrated excellent drafting/development of late. Play to your best strength as an org. Hedgehog Concept in Good to Great.

[Johnny Makarov]

Hot take. If the Stars play us in the playoffs we are beating them.

We just need Popisil to injure Pavelski in game 1.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by manwiches

I have selective memory good sir. My point was, that Hamonic trade was seen as a big time overpayment.

Reality. Tanev is a mid 30s, oft injured defenseman, who many can't afford at full salary and likely won't re-sign. Full stop.

The market was obviously not there to get the 1st they tried holding out for, but instead, get essentially two second rounders and potentially a 3rd. Draft capital is nice, yes. But now the Flames have a chosen 2nd rounder in their system, who they identified and did their homework at the time of his draft, that is in their system and they know exactly who they have. If you're led to believe Conroy, Dallas's GM had to really bend to give him up. Regardless, we have a guy who we would have likely drafted at some point this or next year, but is already 2-3 years seasoned and will be ready closer to when we want to finally come out of this.

I dont think Conroy has anything to worry about….Tanev is the UFA. He lost nothing even if these picks dont turn out

He got what the market was willing to pay more or less

[Leeman4Gilmour]

https://www.capfriendly.com/scouting...shnikov-425702

Capfriendly Scouting Report on Artem Grushnikov

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Rankings are snapshots in time. And progression isn't linear. The rankings have far less correlation with eventual success than you would think - considering that it should be relatively straight-forward to pick which guys are the most likely to make it.

But it simply isn't the case.

If you make your assessment, based on a single thing you read ("profile that virtually never translates to the NHL") then that is on you.

It's one of the things I've read.


So if rankings don't matter isn't it just better to turn all your higher picks into multiple lower picks? That way you have "more fish in the barrel". Seems like you need to do a lot of praying with this tactic.

[Heavy Jack]

A lot of the players drafted in 2020 and 2021 drafts are hard to put a finger on too because of the Covid factor so I wouldn’t put too much stock into the falling in the redraft, at least not yet. From the sounds of it we are getting an extremely dedicated and driven player, only 20, from an org with a fantastic drafting resume. To go with that he compliments our offensive D prospects quite nicely and is only 45 games into pro hockey at this point in his career. It’ll be a nice shot in the arm for the Wranglers too down the stretch and with Poirier back from injury it’s a great time to see how they would complement each other on the ice. I’m coming around to the trade, not thrilled about the conditions on the 3rd but that’s not the end of the world either. Comoros said he was gonna trade players he couldn’t get to extend and he has Hanifin remaining, fantastic direction the team is embarking on and he has my full support.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Right now the Dallas 2nd round pick is slotted at #60 closer to a 3rd round pick. Grushnikov was drafted #48 OA in 2021.

why were the flames not interested in retaining cap space and getting the 4th round pick for the 2023-24 cap space? They are looking at 7M deadline cap space or more. Cap friendly shows them retaining tanev's 2.25. There is only 212K potential in bonuses

Are the Flames looking to take on cap space at the deadline? Maybe part of the Petterson trade? Or will they eat the space to make Hanifin/Markstrom more doable? taking back a bad contract as well a retain cap?

What are you talking about? The Flames retained 50%, the maximum amount the CBA allows one club to retain. To get to the 75% retention that Dallas requested, it was necessary under the CBA for a third team to be involved.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Nothing better than a rush to negativity with bad intel!

Yeah terrible guy

But can we put to rest that Treliving was handcuffed because ownership refused to do retention?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by traptor

O yeah I know. I have been saying that as people wwre planning the parade for Bourque. Infact I had said a 2nd+grushnikov as a likely option in one of my previous posts.

Doesn't stop me from feeling underwhelmed by the entire collection we've gotten back though.

I would feel alot more comfortable about it all if they said they were rebuilding and not on pace for another mid teens 1st.

I also feel like we should have more then one late 1st for 4 UFAs moved out.
Monahan just got a 1st+ ffs...

Sitting 11th right now, a whisker from 9th. No Tanev and Hanifin has one skate out the door.

On pace for mid teens?

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Rankings are snapshots in time. And progression isn't linear. The rankings have far less correlation with eventual success than you would think - considering that it should be relatively straight-forward to pick which guys are the most likely to make it.

But it simply isn't the case.

If you make your assessment, based on a single thing you read ("profile that virtually never translates to the NHL") then that is on you.

Exactly, the screenshot of the leagues view 950 days ago is that he was a 48th overall pick. A re-draft now would be very different. He's two and a half years more baked.

If you look at another certain Russian Defenceman's numbers leading to the NHL, they weren't so great either.

Mr. Konstantinov
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...y.php?pid=2780

He grew up in the Moscow system. He is probably psycho level disciplined, where a DMAN is not allowed to go end to end 10 times a game or they shoot your dad. That photo of him is pretty much Drago from Rocky.

Fans ALWAYS ALWAYS overvalue dipsy doodlers.

[memphusk]

So traded an old beat up defenseman thats plays defence for a young up and coming defenseman that's plays defence? I like it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by manwiches

Let's all remember Treliving paid two 2nds for Hamonic.

This was the best deal available. Conroy has shown that his scouts have been able to do their homework in the short term, so I have faith that this will be fine.

You can't trade for high profile, high point getters every where, as that won't build you a well rounded team. We got a defensive defenseman, who appears to be like a Tanev 2.0, and is already very much sure of his own game and his strengths/limitations.

Every team needs a guy like Tanev, Regehr, etc etc etc. We now have a guy in our system we can grow.

He paid a 1st (Dobson) and two 2nds for Hamonic.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

why were the flames not interested in retaining cap space and getting the 4th round pick for the 2023-24 cap space? They are looking at 7M deadline cap space or more. Cap friendly shows them retaining tanev's 2.25. There is only 212K potential in bonuses ?

I thought I heard/read that 50% is the max that one team is allowed to do?

Yup, they retained the max they could on tanev, https://colliganhockey.com/nhl-cba-r...salary-trades/