Beloved character actor Osama bin Laden, star of TV's "Fox News", dies age 54

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by flamesaresmokin

Osama is definitely dead. If he wasn't we would have heard from alqaeda by now refuting this claim and surely his family would be saying differently. I just find it stupid not to show people that it is indeed over.

They should have brought him in, tried him in a western justice system and executed him as opposed to taking him out. This would have curbed a large amount of questioning. I suppose this may have opened the door for a flurry of attacks against the US so its a very tough area.

You're right. But i think it would have done the complete opposite. If he was captured, tried and executed things would have been done the right way. I think killing him and not giving proof of his death is worse and would open the door for more violence.

One of the reasons people advocate capital punishment is because it is a gruesome deterrent. If you show everyone that a crime will have the punishment of death, you will have that in the back of a persons mind if they think of committing that crime. I think same thing would apply here. We are all human. If Bin Laden was captured and executed i think it would have sent a strong message to people.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Who cares what conspiracy theorists think? No government should cater their decisions around what a minority of nut jobs think. Publish the photos to show the population of sound intellect that the mission was accomplished.

The guy has been on the lam for 18 years. Why on earth would they choose to say they killed him now if they didn't really kill him?

Releasing the pictures would do nothing but incite more rage to irrational folks that believe it is ok to kill anyone who disagrees with you.

No thanks.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by valo403

The "population of sound intellect" doesn't need to look at a picture of half a face to come to that conclusion.

Fair enough. I think that there is no doubt of his demise by the hands of the USA. Maybe I'm just morbid, but I would like to see the pictures just to bring this 10 year saga to full circle.

[rubecube]

I think one of the best takes on conspiracy theories is Richard Hofstadter's from 1964:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/1964/11/0014706

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Who cares what conspiracy theorists think? No government should cater their decisions around what a minority of nut jobs think. Publish the photos to show the population of sound intellect that the mission was accomplished.

It's irresponsible, childish and arrogant to think anyone who has questions is a conspiracy theorist or a nut job and not of sound intellect. Having an open mind and questioning things never leads to anything but the truth.

Here's what i don't agree with, or what i have taken note of mentally that makes no logical sense at the moment. And yes it's imperative for the government of any country to be held responsible by it's citizens. If i was an American this is what i would be asking:

1. US thanks Pakistan for help in killing Bin Laden
a. Bin Laden was IN Pakistan, close to capital of country
b. Bin Laden was IN a compound in a neighbourhood where retired
Pakistani army generals live.
c. Can the worlds most wanted man live in your country, in an area
close to your national capital for any period of time without
public/government finding out?
d. Logically speaking, Pakistan must have knew about Bin Laden's location?
e. Why did Pakistan not arrest/kill Bin Laden?
f. Why did it take 'satellite' images of Bin Laden exercising in
compound for USA to find out location?

2. Americans encountered fire fight/opposition at compound
a. was Bin Laden visually confirmed? How? Gun fights do not erupt
at close, visual range. Especially in a raid.

3. Bin Laden shot, body taken by Americans, given 'proper islamic burial," buried at sea.
a. an operation practiced for a week and in the planning for years
and there was not any care put into publicly confirming death,
compound, circumstances? No real footage release yet, no
pictures. And now no body?

In a nutshell: Pakistan congratulated on helping kill Bin Laden when Bin Laden spent a substantial amount of time in the area of retired generals, near capital of country. American team practiced raid for one week, raided compound, shot Bin Laden, took body, have not released any proof of what happened and subsequently buried the body at sea. Everyone is celebrating the death of Bin Laden and the government who killed him wants us to believe they paid him the respect of giving him an Islamic burial? (Hussein , Milosevic given trials and executed…Osama assassinated yet given proper burial? Makes no sense)

I understand that it will take time for details to come out. But for an operation that took years of intelligence gathering and a week of practice, shouldn't certain details to be known as fact and not super sensitive be released to the public by now? If Obama's writers had enough time to prepare a speech, you'd think the government would come out and release certain details they have known for a while like how Bin Laden was able to hide so close to Islamabad, what Pakistan's role was in his capture etc.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

So can we call the new bunch of disbelievers "Deaders?"

Dead Heads

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

You're right. But i think it would have done the complete opposite. If he was captured, tried and executed things would have been done the right way. I think killing him and not giving proof of his death is worse and would open the door for more violence.

One of the reasons people advocate capital punishment is because it is a gruesome deterrent. If you show everyone that a crime will have the punishment of death, you will have that in the back of a persons mind if they think of committing that crime. I think same thing would apply here. We are all human. If Bin Laden was captured and executed i think it would have sent a strong message to people.

A strong message to who? The Al-Qaeda members that routinely blow themselves up for the cause? The people that do that want to die. They want to be martyred. The fear of being killed by the Great Devil is not going to persuade them to stop wanting to die in the battle against the Great Devil.

"You love life, and we love death."

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

1. US thanks Pakistan for help in killing Bin Laden
a. Bin Laden was IN Pakistan, close to capital of country
b. Bin Laden was IN a compound in a neighbourhood where retired
Pakistani army generals live.
c. Can the worlds most wanted man live in your country, in an area
close to your national capital for any period of time without
public/government finding out?
d. Logically speaking, Pakistan must have knew about Bin Laden's location?
e. Why did Pakistan not arrest/kill Bin Laden?
f. Why did it take 'satellite' images of Bin Laden exercising in
compound for USA to find out location?

Quite clearly Pakistan wasn't helping. It's been clear for years. The irrational reaction would be to condemn them for harboring Bin Laden and taking some sort of military or economic action against them.....a nuclear nation mind you.

The smart reaction is to publicly praise them for their cooperation and paint them as a Pro-west, but more importantly anti islamo-fascist nation for all the arab/muslim world to see.

2. Americans encountered fire fight/opposition at compound
a. was Bin Laden visually confirmed? How? Gun fights do not erupt
at close, visual range. Especially in a raid.

Huh? That's exactly how gun fights erupt in a raid. I don't get your rationale here.

3. Bin Laden shot, body taken by Americans, given 'proper islamic burial," buried at sea.
a. an operation practiced for a week and in the planning for years
and there was not any care put into publicly confirming death,
compound, circumstances? No real footage release yet, no
pictures. And now no body?

Where is the mandate for public confirmation? The muslim world isn't demanding it. Why is this something that is required in your eyes? What would be the rationale for lying about it?

The burial is out of respect for the billion + muslims in the world, not out of respect for bin Laden.



.[/QUOTE]

[valo403]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

It's irresponsible, childish and arrogant to think anyone who has questions is a conspiracy theorist or a nut job and not of sound intellect. Having an open mind and questioning things never leads to anything but the truth.

Here's what i don't agree with, or what i have taken note of mentally that makes no logical sense at the moment. And yes it's imperative for the government of any country to be held responsible by it's citizens. If i was an American this is what i would be asking:

1. US thanks Pakistan for help in killing Bin Laden
a. Bin Laden was IN Pakistan, close to capital of country
b. Bin Laden was IN a compound in a neighbourhood where retired
Pakistani army generals live.
c. Can the worlds most wanted man live in your country, in an area
close to your national capital for any period of time without
public/government finding out?
d. Logically speaking, Pakistan must have knew about Bin Laden's location?
e. Why did Pakistan not arrest/kill Bin Laden?
f. Why did it take 'satellite' images of Bin Laden exercising in
compound for USA to find out location?

2. Americans encountered fire fight/opposition at compound
a. was Bin Laden visually confirmed? How? Gun fights do not erupt
at close, visual range. Especially in a raid.

3. Bin Laden shot, body taken by Americans, given 'proper islamic burial," buried at sea.
a. an operation practiced for a week and in the planning for years
and there was not any care put into publicly confirming death,
compound, circumstances? No real footage release yet, no
pictures. And now no body?

In a nutshell: Pakistan congratulated on helping kill Bin Laden when Bin Laden spent a substantial amount of time in the area of retired generals, near capital of country. American team practiced raid for one week, raided compound, shot Bin Laden, took body, have not released any proof of what happened and subsequently buried the body at sea. Everyone is celebrating the death of Bin Laden and the government who killed him wants us to believe they paid him the respect of giving him an Islamic burial? (Hussein , Milosevic given trials and executed…Osama assassinated yet given proper burial? Makes no sense)

I understand that it will take time for details to come out. But for an operation that took years of intelligence gathering and a week of practice, shouldn't certain details to be known as fact and not super sensitive be released to the public by now? If Obama's writers had enough time to prepare a speech, you'd think the government would come out and release certain details they have known for a while like how Bin Laden was able to hide so close to Islamabad, what Pakistan's role was in his capture etc.

Question 1 is being asked by the US government itself. Not sure where there's any conspiracy here, those are issues that have been raised in the past and the distrust of Pakistan is to such a degree that the US didn't even tell them about the raid.

Question 2 sounds like something coming from someoen who thinks they're a military expert based on playing CoD.

Question 3 is nonsense. What is your expectation here? Body placed on a stake in Times Sq? An operation carried out with a 'no face shots' policy so the pictures would come out good?

It honestly takes an incredibly small amount of intellect, or maybe just a massive sense of entitlement, to think that every detail should be made public. This isn't some small time operation, and it's certainly far from over.

[PackersFan]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

Everyone is celebrating the death of Bin Laden and the government who killed him wants us to believe they paid him the respect of giving him an Islamic burial? (Hussein , Milosevic given trials and executed…Osama assassinated yet given proper burial? Makes no sense)

Obama obviously instructed for an Islamic burial. And there are theories on both sides as to why

Side 1 - he is a Muslim himself (although not publicly admitted, but his speaches talking about the Holy Koran prove it), and he saw it fit to give Osama that right.
- he doesn't want to piss off the Saudis or any other Muslim Oil nation

Side 2 - It keeps peaceful Muslims from having a reason to join a terrorist group. Good foreign relations
- Could provide protection for the troops, as well as assist in continuing to gather critical information from muslims who have been providing it.

All the extremists out there are not going to lay down their guns and walk away from Al Queda because he was given a proper burial. I don't see why it mattered if he was buried according to Islamic law, or if they brought the body back to the US and paraded it around the country. Those extremists are going to hate us, and continue to attack us regardless.

As far as I am concerned Osama was Mass Murderer, and should not have been given ANY burial rights or rituals

If Bush was still president, you can be sure Osama would not have been buried under Islamic Law within 24 hours after being killed. And he would have let the world see proof that the SOAB was dead.

[jar_e]

In regards to Pakistan not helping, there was a quote from a White House employee earlier today stating that the reason Pakistan was never approached to help with the raid was that members of the government were either "incompetent or involved".

[JBR]

As much as I "think" I wanted to see pictures, just for the entertainment value... I agree with Obama's decision not to show them.

The last thing any American or Canadian family wants is somebody posting "death photos" of any captured/killed solider from our side.... It's pretty likely something like this would happen within days of the photos being released.

[North East Goon]

What are they going to do with Moammar Gaddhafi's body? Maybe drape him in one of Liberace's robes and dump him in the sea?

[Reggie Dunlop]

60 Minutes interview excerpt released

STEVE KROFT: Did you see the pictures?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Yes.
STEVE KROFT: What was your reaction when you saw them?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: It was him.
STEVE KROFT: Why haven’t you released them?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: You know– we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that– we are absolutely certain this was him. We’ve done DNA– sampling– and testing. And– and so there is no doubt that– we killed– Osama bin Laden. It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head– are not floating around– as– an incitement to additional violence. As a propaganda tool. You know, that’s not who we are. You know, we don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was– deserving of the justice that he received. And I think– Americans and people around the world are glad that he’s gone. But– but we don’t need to spike the football. And– I think that given the– the graphic nature of these photos– it would– create some national security risk. And I’ve discussed this with– Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and– my intelligence teams and they all agree.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PackersFan

Obama obviously instructed for an Islamic burial. And there are theories on both sides as to why

Side 1 - he is a Muslim himself (although not publicly admitted, but his speaches talking about the Holy Koran prove it), and he saw it fit to give Osama that right.
- he doesn't want to piss off the Saudis or any other Muslim Oil nation

Side 2 - It keeps peaceful Muslims from having a reason to join a terrorist group. Good foreign relations
- Could provide protection for the troops, as well as assist in continuing to gather critical information from muslims who have been providing it.

All the extremists out there are not going to lay down their guns and walk away from Al Queda because he was given a proper burial. I don't see why it mattered if he was buried according to Islamic law, or if they brought the body back to the US and paraded it around the country. Those extremists are going to hate us, and continue to attack us regardless.

As far as I am concerned Osama was Mass Murderer, and should not have been given ANY burial rights or rituals

If Bush was still president, you can be sure Osama would not have been buried under Islamic Law within 24 hours after being killed. And he would have let the world see proof that the SOAB was dead.

You've got to be kidding me. Possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read (the highlighted text).

As for the rest of it, it's not about convincing extremists to lay down their guns, it's about providing less fuel to the fire in terms of cultivating future generations of extremists. Giving them something like the desecration of the body of a Muslim to point at helps that cause immensely. There's also the fact that we're better than the nenaderthals that make up the extremist camp, or at least some of us are.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by PackersFan

All the extremists out there are not going to lay down their guns and walk away from Al Queda because he was given a proper burial. I don't see why it mattered if he was buried according to Islamic law, or if they brought the body back to the US and paraded it around the country. Those extremists are going to hate us, and continue to attack us regardless.

Right now there is a huge movement towards democracy and self-determination sweeping the Middle East, you may have heard of it. One of the extremely noteworthy things about this movement is how generally secular it is and how little radical islamists have been involved or had any influence.

More than any thing else that's happened in the Middle East, this is the most promising step towards a peaceful and stable future for the region that's been seen since the end of the Second World War. Doing anything that could inflame islamists, drive support to them or give them influence in the ongoing Libyan Civil War, or particularly the unrest in Yemen - where Al Qaeda is known to be particularly strong - would be a bad idea.

That is the political reason for treating the body with respect. Also, probably the political rational behind not releasing the photos. Personally I kinda think he should, but I haven't seen them - obviously - maybe if I did, I'd feel differently.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

60 Minutes interview excerpt released

STEVE KROFT: Did you see the pictures?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Yes.
STEVE KROFT: What was your reaction when you saw them?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: It was him.
STEVE KROFT: Why haven’t you released them?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: You know– we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that– we are absolutely certain this was him. We’ve done DNA– sampling– and testing. And– and so there is no doubt that– we killed– Osama bin Laden. It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head– are not floating around– as– an incitement to additional violence. As a propaganda tool. You know, that’s not who we are. You know, we don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was– deserving of the justice that he received. And I think– Americans and people around the world are glad that he’s gone. But– but we don’t need to spike the football. And– I think that given the– the graphic nature of these photos– it would– create some national security risk. And I’ve discussed this with– Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and– my intelligence teams and they all agree.

I agree with Obama but the photos will be "leaked" sooner rather than later IMO.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: You know– we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that– we are absolutely certain this was him. We’ve done DNA– sampling– and testing. And– and so there is no doubt that– we killed– Osama bin Laden. It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head– are not floating around– as– an incitement to additional violence. As a propaganda tool. You know, that’s not who we are. You know, we don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was– deserving of the justice that he received. And I think– Americans and people around the world are glad that he’s gone. But– but we don’t need to spike the football. And– I think that given the– the graphic nature of these photos– it would– create some national security risk. And I’ve discussed this with– Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and– my intelligence teams and they all agree.

Obama or Fleury?

[afc wimbledon]

It doesn't matter whether they release pictures or not, those that want to believe he's alive will still believe, the important point is those that are actually involved know, his Pakistani ISI handlers know he's dead, Al Quada know he's dead, the message that the US will do what it needs to in the region is an important one for Pakistan to heed, least they find India being armed to the hilt and told to do whatever it wants.

[PackersFan]

Originally Posted by valo403

You've got to be kidding me. Possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read (the highlighted text)

OK, then how many other Presidents have acknowledged the "HOLY KORAN" in their speeches/addresses?

How many other Presidents have bowed to the Saudi's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAff...eature=related