2023/24 No Hope Flames Rumours & Speculation Thread

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

You can also make a case than Coleman was better than Mangiapane last year for about $900k less. Mangiapane was an RFA too.

Lucic, Magiapane, Kadri, Vladar and Markstrom all had worse season and are probably more over paid than Coleman is.

I don't like expensive 3rd liners either, but Backlund and Coleman weren't the problem and are only slightly overpaid for 3rd liners. They probably were considered one of the best 3rd line combos in the league too.

Man, this really shows how bad the team's cap structure is and how they need to stop handing out retirement contracts to everyone. It's a bad contract but not even among the worst on the team.

[GullFoss]

Here is a really great article from 2022 explaining that in Huby's best season, the following happened:

https://theathletic.com/3174467/2022...consideration/

1) Huberdeau did not drive play

2) Huberdeau was not good at winning puck battles and board battles

3) Huberdeau was bad a defensive recoveries

4) Huberdeau was bad at retrieving pucks in offensive zone

5) Huberdeau was often the first man out and last man in

Summary of article:

"Without Barkov ahead of him in the lineup eating crucial tough minutes, it’s difficult to imagine Huberdeau having a similarly strong offensive season. He’s at his best when playing defense isn’t a high priority, a luxury he’s afforded on the second line. Combine that with his style of play — one where he does cheat for offense — and his totals start looking a little inflated."

"The Panthers get a lot more good than bad out of Huberdeau’s affinity for a rush-based game, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with some drawbacks.

Combine that with Huberdeau’s below-average defensive game in general and there are real issues here worth discussing that do lower his total value. For all the offensive vision he has, he doesn’t always make the right defensive reads. He either looks out of place while attempting to defend, is straight up out of position defending no one, or he overcommits and ends up behind the play."

Pretty obvious why he didn't mesh with Sutter. Huby is not capable of playing the 200ft game. Super excited to watch this guy for the next 8 years. It sounds like a winner style for the playoffs /sarcasm

Sure sounds like when it came to playoff hockey, Panthers did some addition by subtraction.

[dino7c]

Playing "behind" Barkov...scoring 27 more points and playing a lot with him out of the lineup

Pathers also had other worldly goaltending or they would have been done in the playoffs in 5 games...the second it came back to earth they were absolutely pounded

[Sandman]

I think there's a happy medium in there somewhere- Huby showed last season that he can play sound defensive hockey. If he can combine a little of that with a point-per-game or more, we're laughing. If everyone pulls the same direction, we don't necessarily need him to score 115 points.

[Jason14h]

Honestly I would prefer he plays no D and puts up 115 points

Flames always have this obsession with trying to make players who suck at D play a better defensive game . Lean into your players strengths . We have plenty of guys who can play defensive hockey in the forwards ranks

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Honestly I would prefer he plays no D and puts up 115 points

Flames always have this obsession with trying to make players who suck at D play a better defensive game . Lean into your players strengths . We have plenty of guys who can play defensive hockey in the forwards ranks

I prefer he plays within a team system and we win games. We won't be playing the kind of pond hockey that Florida was playing when he put up those numbers.

[C_of_Red28]

This thread sucks. Negativity is brutal.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I prefer he plays within a team system and we win games. We won't be playing the kind of pond hockey that Florida was playing when he put up those numbers.

He played a team game and we didn’t win games and he was useless

So the plan is try more of the same ?

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

He played a team game and we didn’t win games and he was useless

So the plan is try more of the same ?

Read my initial "happy medium" post.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Read my initial "happy medium" post.

But why do you think there is a happy medium ?

He’s never shown he can play D and put up points and he is in his 30s

He has shown he can play elite offence


Maybe we just let our skilled players be skilled and our defensive players be defensive for once instead of always worrying so much about the 100 ft game

It hasn’t worked for this team for the last 20 years

[FiveSeven]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Honestly I would prefer he plays no D and puts up 115 points

Flames always have this obsession with trying to make players who suck at D play a better defensive game . Lean into your players strengths . We have plenty of guys who can play defensive hockey in the forwards ranks

I concur, but there is definitely a line to walk. Flames always just have a habit of pushing that to the extreme. If little Johnny can become a pretty damn good defensive player, albeit for one season, then anyone can do better.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But why do you think there is a happy medium ?

He’s never shown he can play D and put up points and he is in his 30s

He has shown he can play elite offence


Maybe we just let our skilled players be skilled and our defensive players be defensive for once instead of always worrying so much about the 100 ft game

It hasn’t worked for this team for the last 20 years

The post was in response to GullFoss' post, and I was making the point that Huby can afford to clean up his game defensively while putting up reasonable numbers. Most top-line players on WINNING teams play some kind of passable defense-it's just a fact in today's game, whether you like it or not.

Sutter wanted to turn Huby into a checker- I'm not talking about that, I want him to be better.

[Sec214]

Originally Posted by Sandman

The post was in response to GullFoss' post, and I was making the point that Huby can afford to clean up his game defensively while putting up reasonable numbers. Most top-line players on WINNING teams play some kind of passable defense-it's just a fact in today's game, whether you like it or not.

Sutter wanted to turn Huby into a checker- I'm not talking about that, I want him to be better.

I like this version of Huberdeau

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Here is a really great article from 2022 explaining that in Huby's best season, the following happened:

https://theathletic.com/3174467/2022...consideration/

1) Huberdeau did not drive play

2) Huberdeau was not good at winning puck battles and board battles

3) Huberdeau was bad a defensive recoveries

4) Huberdeau was bad at retrieving pucks in offensive zone

5) Huberdeau was often the first man out and last man in

Summary of article:

"Without Barkov ahead of him in the lineup eating crucial tough minutes, it’s difficult to imagine Huberdeau having a similarly strong offensive season. He’s at his best when playing defense isn’t a high priority, a luxury he’s afforded on the second line. Combine that with his style of play — one where he does cheat for offense — and his totals start looking a little inflated."

"The Panthers get a lot more good than bad out of Huberdeau’s affinity for a rush-based game, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with some drawbacks.

Combine that with Huberdeau’s below-average defensive game in general and there are real issues here worth discussing that do lower his total value. For all the offensive vision he has, he doesn’t always make the right defensive reads. He either looks out of place while attempting to defend, is straight up out of position defending no one, or he overcommits and ends up behind the play."

Pretty obvious why he didn't mesh with Sutter. Huby is not capable of playing the 200ft game. Super excited to watch this guy for the next 8 years. It sounds like a winner style for the playoffs /sarcasm

Sure sounds like when it came to playoff hockey, Panthers did some addition by subtraction.

You are fooling yourself if you don't think those criticism's aren't commonly shared by nearly all of the top end offensive wingers in the game. Kucherov, Pastrnak, Ovechkin, Kane, Draisaitl, etc.. all cheat on the defensive side of the puck and receive favorable offensive deployments in order to create offense.

Do you know what the difference is however? They have/had coaches who understood their strengths and weaknesses as players instead of one that diminished their creativity and confidence by attempting to change them into player's they are not.

When you have a player with elite level offensive ability - it is actually a good idea to manage the matchups they receive and to allow them to exchange chances with the more exploitable talent(s) on the opposition side.

The need to always have to look for faults in a players game is ridiculous. That article comes off as a hit piece digging into a players season whom finished second in the league in scoring.. Is it at all necessary?

Huberdeau routinely win his matchups and has not had a negative goal differential at five on five since his second year in the NHL. We paid the man 80+ million dollars for a reason. Let him play his game.

[TheIronMaiden]

I think that people are too heavily invested in the idea that the coach was the problem.
No doubt Sutter was not the solution, but the problems with the team run deeper than that.

[logan_izer10]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that people are too heavily invested in the idea that the coach was the problem.
No doubt Sutter was not the solution, but the problems with the team run deeper than that.

Personally, I think it's incredibly accurate. The mental component of sports is just as important as the physical. The stories that have come out only prove what we all thought was wrong. We've all worked for a boss who just absolutely kills the experience and makes life so much harder. You lose all your enthusiasm and love for what you do.

[AustinL_NHL]

A semi-capable Markstrom vs the Houdini act he's pulled since the Edmonton series would have this organization in a completely different place.

He's far and away the number 1 reason the Flames organization has gone through the insane overhaul over the last 2 summers in my opinion.

Sutter had his fair share of in-game management issues (who he'd dress, the lines, ice time, etc.), but overall his system was still as dominant as they come around the NHL and kept the Flames in every game.

For all the blame to fall on Sutter after a period of 1 Playoff round and 1 regular season in which we witnessed:

- Markstrom turn from a Vezina-calibre goalie to incapable in the worst ways.
- the most 1-goal defeats in NHL history
- 17 OT losses (1 less than the NHL record)
- the biggest point drop-off in NHL history from Huberdeau (Sutter deserves a fair bit of blame for his usage, but definitely not all/most of it)
- Kadri completely turning off his GAF meter post-All Star break in which the Flames were never outta the race

Everything that could've went wrong the last season and EDM series has gone wrong, but even if Sutter had tried his hardest to throw this past season away, it took all the hockey gods coming together to just barely keep the Flames out.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Honestly I would prefer he plays no D and puts up 115 points

Flames always have this obsession with trying to make players who suck at D play a better defensive game . Lean into your players strengths . We have plenty of guys who can play defensive hockey in the forwards ranks

Seriously.

If Huberdeau is excelling at offence, give him 70% O-Zone starts. Let him do his thing and have the multiple Selke vote receiving players on the team play the defensive role. Play players to their strengths instead of trying to put square pegs into round holes. The Flames have two of the top defensive centers in the league on the team. For whatever baffling reason, we also need Huberdeau to be a defensive forward?

We do not need a happy medium. We need players to consistently put up points.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that people are too heavily invested in the idea that the coach was the problem.
No doubt Sutter was not the solution, but the problems with the team run deeper than that.

Sutter exacerbated all problems on the team. He prevented the team from forming any kind chemistry. He played favorites. He didn't let players play their own game. He was inexplicably hard on young players and guys who didn't fit his outdated ideal of what an NHL player should be.

The other major problem on the team was coming from management, who were consistently giving out retirement contracts to vets. Both Sutter and the management were creating systems that naturally turned players against each other.

The Flames have had fantastic players, who have all been largely team players, with the only major recent exception being James Neal. There's no way to get players to gel, when they are living under draconian and non-sensical coaching and financial systems.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by blankall

Sutter exacerbated all problems on the team. He prevented the team from forming any kind chemistry. He played favorites. He didn't let players play their own game. He was inexplicably hard on young players and guys who didn't fit his outdated ideal of what an NHL player should be.

The other major problem on the team was coming from management, who were consistently giving out retirement contracts to vets. Both Sutter and the management were creating systems that naturally turned players against each other.

The Flames have had fantastic players, who have all been largely team players, with the only major recent exception being James Neal. There's no way to get players to gel, when they are living under draconian and non-sensical coaching and financial systems.

Well said.
It doesn’t take much bleach to whiten an entire load and thats what sutter did is suck everything unique about every player.