2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You can quote Burke and Treviling all you want and say no one was ever harmed by being sent down but there is no evidence to warrant that. A guy's confidence level takes a hit when he is cut. It's human nature. It's different for Jooris than it is for Baertschi. I hope he picks himself up and comes back soon but take the blinders off your eyes. These guys are human and the biggest factor holding young guys back is mental not physical. Telling guys they're not good enough, and they need to - beef up and play a 200 foot game for example - and then telling them they are still not good enough has the risk of hurting development. I don't think this is a revolutionary idea for an objective person. I get so tired of hockey people repeating the same old tired ideas without ever questioning their basis.

This is a very interesting concept but you may have a point. Maybe management does not always communicate or handle players in ways that would give an important boost to their confidence (and could actually set them back). We have to admit to some degree that even though Monahan "who made some mistakes last year", has been given a steady dose of confidence by everyone around him. At least as far as we can tell. Not to take credit away from Monahan he has really thrived and came to camp in great shape too. I think also from a management perspective they don't want to just hand it to a player including Baertschi they want the player to play at a very high level; They just need to find ways to make sure Baertschi feels good about his progress even if it take longer than Baertschi wants it to. I agree with many here that the fact that Baertschi work hard this summer is something he should be feeling good about. Just the fact he was one of the very last cuts indicates he is on the right track.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by the2bears

How does it help his career to demand a trade? That would show some pretty alarming entitlement issues. Certainly an over-reaction.

I explained it pretty plainly. He has a better chance at making the NHL on a different team.

If you are driving in a car towards a brick wall, would it be an over-reaction to switch lanes to where there isn't one?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Other than score, kill penalties and pay well defensively

yes he does, about one in every five games.

[flambers]

Not surprised with the moves, Flames are a really bad team this season.

Management have to look at the situation where are the prospects better off at?

Sven however could be a problem.... he might struggle big time at the AHL level

[FBI]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What does this mean?

Yeah don't understand this quote either. Does he mean the people that stayed on the team even though they didn't really deserve it might only last for a day if they don't improve?

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What does this mean?

Maybe he was hinting that tomorrow Setoguchi will be waived and Granlund will take his place, which would be perfectly valid given the way Granlund played before being injured. So literally the situation may last a day.

[IgiTang]

Trade him (Baertschi) for bluechip D prospect and a pick. Kids becoming a headcase and the cloud over our rookie love fest.

[Bingo]

I loved Jooris' camp, and I think it's great the Flames added another guy pushing to the bottom six at the NHL level, but did we honestly think these three were going to make the team?

Ortio isn't really in the discussion so put a pin in him.

The Flames with Bollix, McGrattan and Bouma as a fourth line didn't have room for a guy like that and we all knew it. He played well, and gives the team pause for thought but he doesn't project to a top nine player and there's no room. Especially on a team that wants two face punchers.

Baertschi came in and worked hard, showed more 200 foot game and jam and displayed that he's righted some of his demons. That's great. But he wasn't even close to pushing Gaudreau for a spot on the left side and with that we all knew he would be cut.

I'd like to see Setoguchi pushed out, for sure. He's done nothing, but Gaudreau is the hot topic. His getting cut would warrant 7 pages of outrage, these three don't.

I still think the Flames have vets in place to ensure they don't get too far up the standings this year, but that's another topic.

[TheDebaser]

People on this board can't ####ing handle bad news. It's just stupid at this point. Why do I bother coming into threads like this.

Baertschi didn't makeded the team. He'll be fine. I would bet cash that he's in the lineup by January and never goes back to Adirondack again.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What promises, and made to whom?

I know people get tired of hearing it, but the fact is that we almost certainly do not know the while story here: we as fans and outside observers are unfortunately ill equipped to judge whether or not the team is being fair to its players based on the information we receive in the media.

When this plays out over the course of the next several weeks and months, then we will know a lot more. Until then, it seems silly to me that we get so upset about the optics of this situation.

Management came out and clearly stated that their approach to the team would be "Always earned, never given.". And you position is, what? We can't take a clear statement like that as a reasonable indication of what their actual practices will be?

Originally Posted by mile

@SUNRandySportak: #Flames GM Brad Treliving on cuts meaning some leave compared to some who may not have earned it: "It could stay like that for a day”

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What does this mean?

If we can't rely on public comments as an indication of what management's actual decisions will be, then what does it matter what his statement means?

[TheDebaser]

Sounds to me like Treliving might be working the phones. Why lose a player on waivers when you could just send Sven down for a day or two while you sell to the highest bidder.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I explained it pretty plainly. He has a better chance at making the NHL on a different team.

If you are driving in a car towards a brick wall, would it be an over-reaction to switch lanes to where there isn't one?

And I'm being pretty clear as well. Sure he may have a better chance on other teams, but that's not what I'm asking about. How does "demanding" a trade, given who he is and his experience, help him?

And now his situation is so hopeless, he's driving toward a brick wall? Your advice, to a guy with 8 or so NHL games, is to demand a trade. I still think that's a panic laced over-reaction.

[Enoch Root]

There are 16 forwards still here. Of them, who did Baertschi honestly outperform?

Who he didn't (top 9 candidates):

Gaudreau, Monahan, Hudler, Glencross, Backlund, Jones, Raymond, Stajan, Byron, Colborne, Bouma

Who he wasn't competing with:

Bollig, McGrattan

Other prospects he didn't beat:

Granlund, Bennett

Guys he arguably beat:

Setoguchi

So that would put 15 forwards ahead of him. So what is the issue here? Do people really think he should be sitting in the press box?

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I loved Jooris' camp, and I think it's great the Flames added another guy pushing to the bottom six at the NHL level, but did we honestly think these three were going to make the team?

I'd like to see Setoguchi pushed out, for sure. He's done nothing. . . .

I honestly thought that if Setoguchi came into camp and showed nothing, the Flames wouldn't hesitate to waive him and send him down. It still might happen, but hasn't yet, and that is disappointing.

[Ashartus]

I thought from the start there was only room for one of Gaudreau and Baertschi (skilled scoring left wingers without much of a physical dimension to their game); while the latter showed he has progressed, Gaudreau won the spot.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Wow - that is a LOT of assumptions. You know no such things.

You have no idea whether 'confused' means that or not. Maybe it means what I suggested - that he thought he did what they asked him to do.

You do not have any justification to suggest that he thinks he was better than other players. And you CERTAINLY have no justification to assume Setoguchi in particular.

What a bunch of emotional hyperbole!

Randy Sportak @SUNRandySportak · 40m 40 minutes ago "He noticed a winger stayed who had no points in five games and looked more AHLer than he did."

"At least, I'm guessing he noticed. Everybody in the city did.

"Just relaying how I see the mindset after a conversation. Time will tell what happens. Likely will be different roster Nov 1"

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There are 16 forwards still here. Of them, who did Baertschi honestly outperform?

Who he didn't (top 9 candidates):

Gaudreau, Monahan, Hudler, Glencross, Backlund, Jones, Raymond, Stajan, Byron, Colborne, Bouma

Who he wasn't competing with:

Bollig, McGrattan

Other prospects he didn't beat:

Granlund, Bennett

Guys he arguably beat:

Setoguchi

So that would put 15 forwards ahead of him. So what is the issue here? Do people really think he should be sitting in the press box?

I agree with you that Baertschi did not perform better than Gaudreau or Bennett.
However, I would love to know how you figure he under performed the majority of those vets you listed.
Our vets were piss poor during the preseason other than a few of them.
I understand the need to have some experienced players on the team, but in no way, shape or form did a handful of those players you listed outplay Sven, sorry...

[Gaskal]

Baertschi - Top 6 minutes in Adirondack. Probably gets called up if anyone in top 6 on NHL team gets injured - guessing probably Glencross or Hudler.

Jooris - 2nd line RW in Adirondack, as soon as Jones gets injured again either Ferland or Jooris get the call.

Ortio - Starts whole season in Adirondack.


Calm down folks.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

I agree with you that Baertschi did not perform better than Gaudreau or Bennett.
However, I would love to know how you figure he under performed the majority of those vets you listed.
Our vets were piss poor during the preseason other than a few of them.
I understand the need to have some experienced players on the team, but in no way, shape or form did a handful of those players you listed outplay Sven, sorry...

Vets have proven what they are. He had to be better. He wasn't. He was as good as any of them, for sure. Bit he didn't wow management into making a change.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So a rookie making the team only counts if a veteran was put on waivers to make it happen?

The original statement was that a rookie has a snowballs chance in hell of beating out a veteran for a place on the team.

My response to you was which Flames vets did Gaudreau, Monahan, Baertschi, Bouma, Brodie, and Backlund take jobs from?
Nobody.

If you are a rookie, and you're good enough, and there is an opening on the team, you have a pretty good chance of making the team. ... otherwise forget it.... you will be sent to the AHL until there is an opening either through injury or a vets contract has expired. Sending the vet to the AHL, instead of you, just ain't gonna happen...

Now normally I would probably agree with this because the team usually has a lot invested in a vet to just take the chance in losing him on waivers... but what has the team invested in Setoguchi? Nothing.