2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Where did you get this feelings are hurt bs? Read the quote again

"Baertschi: "I'm in-between being sad and just really confused.” Believes he did everything asked him since last season. #Flames"

Sad? Of course, who wouldn't be?
Confused? From his perspective what else does he have to do? He heard management say all the things we did, probably more. I don't doubt he's confused.

But hurt? Where did you get that from?

Fine. I suppose Baertschi's confusion stems from a failure on the part of either management or the player to correctly understand how or why he didn't quite measure up to the established criteria. It's possible that the team has communicated this poorly, but given that LOTS of players have heard the same message—and effectively hear the same message year after year—I would imagine that more likely Baertschi has not correctly understood all that was required of him. More likely, he has not factored enough into consideration the current fact that there were LOTS of players at camp who also did everything that was expected of them. The competition is fierce.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Are you serious? I really like Baertschi, but come on. He has not yet spent a full season in the AHL, and he has not ever scored at a point/game pace. There would actually seem to be PLENTY of room for him to grow in the AHL.

Yes, my read on Baerstchi is that he's the type of guy that when you boost his confidence he is better. Sending him down will only send a very negative message that making the NHL with this club and sticking is an impossibility. Which, let's be honest... might just happen.

There seems to be this letter of the law rule on this website where everyone believes you have to condition in the AHL for 4-5 years. I think it's just because everyone looks at the Oilers and thinks they "rushed them". However there are talented 20 year olds that can and should play in the NHL, and conditioning in the AHL is not always the right answer.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

With Baertschi's comments it makes me think his greatest obstacle to him being a regular in the NHL is his attitude. He's got to take the disappointment and use it as motivation. If he sits and pouts he's done. Come to think of it, if he sits and pouts I don't want him on our team.

You can quote Burke and Treviling all you want and say no one was ever harmed by being sent down but there is no evidence to warrant that. A guy's confidence level takes a hit when he is cut. It's human nature. It's different for Jooris than it is for Baertschi. I hope he picks himself up and comes back soon but take the blinders off your eyes. These guys are human and the biggest factor holding young guys back is mental not physical. Telling guys they're not good enough, and they need to - beef up and play a 200 foot game for example - and then telling them they are still not good enough has the risk of hurting development. I don't think this is a revolutionary idea for an objective person. I get so tired of hockey people repeating the same old tired ideas without ever questioning their basis.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Lol what did glencross say or do? That's reaching a little

Glencross does very little most of the time.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I can say it because I watched some of the vets float around. Glencross, Stajan...?

The vets are asked to show up and put on a jersey. Not hard. I'm not saying they should be sent down and I understand there are contracts or other factors at play, but again the whole meritocracy language was disingenuous with the way this all played out.

This is a discussion that happens every year. Not every veteran is at their best in the preseason but they have proven themselves many times over the years and that still counts for something. They may be off on the ice right now but that doesn't mean they don't work hard. They have years of experience on how to prepare for an NHL season that young players don't have. Everyone knows that Matt Stajan's job is not on the line this time of year.

[gonzo29]

Mildly disappointed in these cuts, but I think most of us expected exactly this scenario.

I'll be truly disappointed if the vets who had poor camps continue to play poorly and face no repercussions, but I think there will be accountability for at least the vets that are easy to put on waivers, cap wise.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Glencross does very little most of the time.

Other than score, kill penalties and pay well defensively

[Split98]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Lol what did glencross say or do? That's reaching a little

He didn't say anything, it's just my impression of his play and what in infer from the effort he seems to put in. I get the impression that he doesn't think his position is at risk (maybe it isn't).

[Mr.Coffee]

Except that Stajan and this crew of vets gets us to 27th place. So while you get people saying look he can score up to 20 goals, that's great but he is part of a bigger problem where you have a team that doesn't win as much as it needs to.

Also the discussion is actually quite different this year. This is the first year in a long time we've had a large pool of very good prospects that are probably NHL caliber, yet because we needlessly signed people like Setoguchi, now get to play in the AHL. It just isn't the right message in my mind.

If you look at how this team has handled all of its' prospects over the last 20 years or so, it's done a very poor job of establishing NHLer's. To run around defending the same organizational behaviors therefore (sending kids down when they're actually ready), seems awfully strange.

edit: this was in response to Henry above

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Other than score, kill penalties and pay well defensively

You can't honestly tell me you've watched Glencross for the past while and not wanted to punch kittens.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Other than score, kill penalties and pay well defensively

I agree he's an excellent PKer, but offensively if he showed more desire, I feel he could be so much more than he is.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Yes, my read on Baerstchi is that he's the type of guy that when you boost his confidence he is better. Sending him down will only send a very negative message that making the NHL with this club and sticking is an impossibility. Which, let's be honest... might just happen.

It might. But again, I think it sets a dangerous precedent to award NHL spots to players based on how they might respond emotionally to an AHL assignment. Baertschi had a really good camp. But did he force his way onto the team? Was he so good that management had no choice but to keep him up for opening night? Hardly.

I feel bad for Baertschi and I really hope that he proves his worth to the coaches, and soon. But this is a really, REALLY tough business. If Baertschi wants to be a full time NHL player, then I think the message here is that it will need to come in spite of his fragile confidence. He needs to overcome that, but probably never will with the team only concerned to send him positive reinforcements.

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

There seems to be this letter of the law rule on this website where everyone believes you have to condition in the AHL for 4-5 years. I think it's just because everyone looks at the Oilers and thinks they "rushed them". However there are talented 20 year olds that can and should play in the NHL, and conditioning in the AHL is not always the right answer.

Wrong. The rule does not apply to Monahan, Gaudreau, or Bennett. You are right. There absolutely are a small handful of gifted 20-year-old players who should and do play in the NHL every season, but these players are in the vast minority of the whole collective of NHL players. The thing is, most do really require several years of development and conditioning in the AHL. Many do not ever make it. It seems that at the top level talent can only get you so far.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Fine. I suppose Baertschi's confusion stems from a failure on the part of either management or the player to correctly understand how or why he didn't quite measure up to the established criteria. It's possible that the team has communicated this poorly, but given that LOTS of players have heard the same message—and effectively hear the same message year after year—I would imagine that more likely Baertschi has not correctly understood all that was required of him. More likely, he has not factored enough into consideration the current fact that there were LOTS of players at camp who also did everything that was expected of them. The competition is fierce.

You have been on here post after post stating that management does not have "established criteria" and the fanbase reads too much into their slogans and statements about competition, spots being open, et cetera.

Clearly Baertschi is confused because he does not understand what is expected of him. He has been asked to change as a player, he has changed as a player, and he seems to be farther back with the organization than he was any of the last two seasons.

So go ahead and put it all on him. Maybe you're right. But I think you should acknowledge that there is also a risk that we have been and continue to mismanage him as a prospect and we see him blossom into the player he could have been here somewhere else.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Except that Stajan and this crew of vets gets us to 27th place. So while you get people saying look he can score up to 20 goals, that's great but he is part of a bigger problem where you have a team that doesn't win as much as it needs to.

Also the discussion is actually quite different this year. This is the first year in a long time we've had a large pool of very good prospects that are probably NHL caliber, yet because we needlessly signed people like Setoguchi, now get to play in the AHL. It just isn't the right message in my mind.

If you look at how this team has handled all of its' prospects over the last 20 years or so, it's done a very poor job of establishing NHLer's. To run around defending the same organizational behaviors therefore (sending kids down when they're actually ready), seems awfully strange.

But opening night really isn't that big of a deal. A rookie breaking the opening night roster should be a rarity. Seeing Gaudreau have an impact on opening night after last year's Monahan would actually be a gigantic kudos to our prospect base.

Prospects work their way into the roster. Rarely will (or should) a veteran lose a position in training camp. As has been pointed out before, camp is an opportunity for veterans to work out their game and get their legs back. The real evaluation starts when the puck is dropped on opening day.

Come December, if we're still seeing the Setoguchi we saw in pre-season I'll start sharpening my pitchfork right with ya

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Split98

You can't honestly tell me you've watched Glencross for the past while and not wanted to punch kittens.

No. I honestly don't get the hate. He plays well, chips in offensively and gets back defensively. I honestly don't know where the haters are drawing this from.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I agree he's an excellent PKer, but offensively if he showed more desire, I feel he could be so much more than he is.

He also would then be a $6 m NHL superstar. There is a reason why Glencross will only ever be a really good player, and ton a great player. That is because consistency at such a high level of performance is no small feat, and is actually a rare, rare talent that teams pay millions for.

[FBI]

Is it possible that there is a silver lining about Bennett here? We all think he needs to go back to junior to beef up, but is it possible management doesn't necessarily agree and wants to see him in 9 games once he's healthy?

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No. I honestly don't get the hate. He plays well, chips in offensively and gets back defensively. I honestly don't know where the haters are drawing this from.

Oh man, not here. So much kitten punching most games. It's getting to be a real issue with the neighbours.

[Street Pharmacist]

I guess it's because he's speedy but doesn't always use his speed?

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I guess it's because he's speedy but doesn't always use his speed?

Or his head, arms, effort, sight or voice. But yeah, speed too!

*Controller Unplugged* comes to mind often when I remember who #20 is.