2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Randy Sportak @SUNRandySportak
Baertschi: "I'm in-between being sad and just really confused.” Believes he did everything asked him since last season. #Flames

Kind of shooting himself in the foot here. Saying something like that his bosses take notice, he should keep it for private conversations with his family and close friends. He doesn't know how to help his cause.

[CliffFletcher]

A lot of people don't seem to understand the point of training camp. It isn't a job interview that decides the careers of these guys. It's a couple weeks to get the vets in game shape and assess the progress of the prospects. It's quite rare for jobs to be on the line during an NHL training camp.

[Mr.Coffee]

Really? Interesting because if working hard is the bare minimum, looks to me like many vets aren't meeting that bare minimum.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think the team did set expectations with fans about the introduction of youth into the lineup, and a team identity built upon earning a spot on the squad. That includes giving your young players marching orders over the offseason on what they need to do to take the next step. Sven in particular seemed to do exactly that.

But ultimately the coaches and management do not answer to the fans. I am sure that if they did, then the opening night roster would be plumb with prospects and popular players, and with no regard for matters of development, sustainability or a long term vision of success in the future.

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think that Treliving has lost street cred with the decision on Setoguchi. Yes, I understand he is a veteran and will get some regular season time to see how he performs, but it is very difficult to say that Setoguchi outplayed Sven or Jooris in the preseason. I've seen nothing to say he came in and beat those kids out of a spot.

Do you think Treliving cares? Do you think he should care? It is not his job—it is not Bob Hartley's job—to make fans happy.

I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with you that Setoguchi did not outplay Jooris or Baertschi in the preseason. However, I also think it is naive to assume that this was the ONLY measure by which coaches made their decisions for the opening night roster.

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

The expectation was set by coaching and management, and fans are entitled to be surprised/disappointed that expectations were not met.

The expectation was set by coaches and management, but the fans and media have also been left to their own devices to interpret how they set the standard. For those of you are disappointed by the results, it is probably more because you decided before hand what was meant by the mantra "always earned, never given." There is no guarantee that your interpretation matches that of the coaches, and it is their interpretation that is the only one that matters in this regard.

[Husky]

Flames need to trade Baertschi. Clearly they have screwed up his developed and he needs a change of scenary. Seems like the Flames management is more interested in giving Setoguchi a paycheque versus developing players.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A lot of people don't seem to understand the point of training camp. It isn't a job interview that decides the careers of these guys. It's a couple weeks to get the vets in game shape and assess the progress of the prospects. It's quite rare for jobs to be on the line during an NHL training camp.

No I think everyone gets that, I think what's confusing is the message management sent to everyone throughout training camp. Which is pretty much lying.

If they'd simply said 'evaluations are always an ongoing process, but we use training camp as just one of the tools to evaluate everyone' maybe everyone would have a different reaction.

[Split98]

As others have said, I'm pretty worried about the Baertschi quote. It seems like there are two players, Baertschi and Glencross, who are naive to what's going on here.

Jooris has to know he put himself on the radar. As much as I'd have liked to see him opening day, it was unrealistic. I did not care at all about Jooris a month ago, the fact that he has put himself into any kind of relevance is a gigantic success for him.

Setoguchi isn't paying to cash a paycheque. He is playing to find his NHL game again. As a Flames fan, I would love to see Devin Charlie Kenichi Setoguchi play the way he has shown he can. He knows Baertschi, Jooris and Granlund are pushing him this year, and will do what he can to keep them out of Alberta. If he fails, we see one of them up. If he succeeds, we have a good player.

Glencross doesn't see to understand his position is in jeopardy. Maybe it's just me, but Floaty McFloatcross has to be trade consideration at this point. I'd much rather see a performing and desperate Setoguchi playing with Baertschi than McFloat show up enough every 8 games.

Baertschi's comments seem to put him in that naive category as well. That he can't see the opening day jam, see that the Flames would want to give Jones and Setoguchi a shot at the start of the season and keep pushing to make sure he's the guy to steal those spots really shows a short-sighted view of him. That exit interview had to be involving his immense improvements and that they see him in the future. How he left thinking "I don't know what to do!" is pretty worrisome.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I just go back to wondering what the point of signing Setoguchi was? It doesn't make much sense to me other than boosting salaries to get to the floor, I guess.

I didn't like the signing because of how deep our forward prospect depth is, and when you look at a quote like that from Baerstchi, there are two sides of the coin in the situation of "creating adversity" and hoping someone breaks through it.

Does playing in the AHL make Baertschi better? I seriously doubt it. Jooris maybe? I dunno, tough decisions, but force signing some slug like Setoguchi causes tougher decisions than necessary.

The Flames also need to realize that fans don't want to watch the vets. Nobody really cares about them.

Don't agree with the Setoguchi over Jooris or Baerstchi. At all. Regardless of "evaluations all season"... because I bet that's not how the rookies view it. They view it that they have been cut. Because they have been cut.

Even boosting salaries doesn't make sense - Baertschi for example would make more than Setoguchi

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Husky

Flames need to trade Baertschi. Clearly they have screwed up his developed and he needs a change of scenary. Seems like the Flames management is more interested in giving Setoguchi a paycheque versus developing players.

Agreed they need to trade him or a different forward prospect for a defensive prospect where we seem (relatively) weak compared to forward.

edit: in fact if I am Baertschi I consider demanding a trade, given the fact that making next year's squad with one more unreal prospect will make it that much tougher. There are different teams where he may be in the NHL or further along in their plans.

His NHL career is in jeopardy given our prospect depth.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Husky

Flames need to trade Baertschi. Clearly they have screwed up his developed and he needs a change of scenary. Seems like the Flames management is more interested in giving Setoguchi a paycheque versus developing players.

Trade a 21 22 year old because a veteran we signed is going to see the opening day roster?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

...Does playing in the AHL make Baertschi better? I seriously doubt it...

Are you serious? I really like Baertschi, but come on. He has not yet spent a full season in the AHL, and he has not ever scored at a point/game pace. There would actually seem to be PLENTY of room for him to grow in the AHL.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Really? Interesting because if working hard is the bare minimum, looks to me like many vets aren't meeting that bare minimum.

I don't know how you can say that. Granted, some of the veterans aren't terribly good, but that's a different story.

That aside, you can't have the attitude that if you did everything that the team asked you to do, you'll get the spot. The camp was full of players that did everything they were asked to do.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Husky

Flames need to trade Baertschi. Clearly they have screwed up his developed and he needs a change of scenary. Seems like the Flames management is more interested in giving Setoguchi a paycheque versus developing players.

No need to panic. All Sven has to do is play well in the AHL. He might be up in a few weeks for all we know.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But in the end, that is entirely on Baertschi. The team can't set double standards for certain players and prospects based on whether or not their feelings are hurt.

Where did you get this feelings are hurt bs? Read the quote again

"Baertschi: "I'm in-between being sad and just really confused.” Believes he did everything asked him since last season. #Flames"

Sad? Of course, who wouldn't be?
Confused? From his perspective what else does he have to do? He heard management say all the things we did, probably more. I don't doubt he's confused.

But hurt? Where did you get that from?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

I don't know how you can say that. Granted, some of the veterans aren't terribly good, but that's a different story.

That aside, you can't have the attitude that if you did everything that the team asked you to do, you'll get the spot. The camp was full of players that did everything they were asked to do.

I can say it because I watched some of the vets float around. Glencross, Stajan...?

The vets are asked to show up and put on a jersey. Not hard. I'm not saying they should be sent down and I understand there are contracts or other factors at play, but again the whole meritocracy language was disingenuous with the way this all played out.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But ultimately the coaches and management do not answer to the fans. I am sure that if they did, then the opening night roster would be plumb with prospects and popular players, and with no regard for matters of development, sustainability or a long term vision of success in the future.


Do you think Treliving cares? Do you think he should care? It is not his job—it is not Bob Hartley's job—to make fans happy.

I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with you that Setoguchi did not outplay Jooris or Baertschi in the preseason. However, I also think it is naive to assume that this was the ONLY measure by which coaches made their decisions for the opening night roster.


The expectation was set by coaches and management, but the fans and media have also been left to their own devices to interpret how they set the standard. For those of you are disappointed by the results, it is probably more because you decided before hand what was meant by the mantra "always earned, never given." There is no guarantee that your interpretation matches that of the coaches, and it is their interpretation that is the only one that matters in this regard.

actually, yes, I do think that Treliving cares. He's in the entertainment market.

My interpretation of what was said is well within the ambit of being reasonable.

I think there will be lots of fan questions about this and is a good lesson for him about communicating in a hockey market vs a non-hockey market. If he didn't want that perception created, he should be more careful with his words.

[Mr.Coffee]

Also nobody is panicking, just criticizing. There is a difference.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Setoguchi has been an every day NHLer for the past five full years—since back before Baertschi was even drafted—and has compiled a resume that includes over 400 NHL games. Are you seriously suggesting that Beartschi should feel slighted for his AHL assignment when a player with +350 games and +100 goals to his credit is still with the team? Come on.

And? Should we bring in Cheechoo as well because he's scored 50 goals? Setoguchi is done, he rode the coattails of Thornton and his career is now going to be over pretty quickly. There is a reason why he's jumping from team to team and can't stick.

The slogan is what it is. A slogan. It means something to the coaches and the players, but not necessarily what you think it ought to mean.

Then why make that slogan public if you seem to think it has some different meaning?

And no, I highly doubt that Flames prospects are unanimous in their determination to cut bait as a result of having been cut from this team.

I highly doubt that too, who said they were?

You seem to think that the coaches and managers at the helm are amateurs who have no understanding about how to relate to their workforce. I am relatively confident that they have a better handle on things than any of us posting on this message board.

I never said that at all. This is a horrible way to respond to a post on a message board. 'We are all dumb because we aren't running a hockey club" is what I get from that sentence. No, they're not all amateurs but as we can see with Kevin Lowe in Edmonton, the right decisions aren't always made. I have no problem criticizing the Flames when I think a player is wrongly cut, that doesn't mean I think I am smarter than Burke or Treliving it just means I think he deserves to be up over a player who showed absolutely nothing in training camp in Setoguchi.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by Split98

As others have said, I'm pretty worried about the Baertschi quote. It seems like there are two players, Baertschi and Glencross, who are naive to what's going on here.

Jooris has to know he put himself on the radar. As much as I'd have liked to see him opening day, it was unrealistic. I did not care at all about Jooris a month ago, the fact that he has put himself into any kind of relevance is a gigantic success for him.

Setoguchi isn't paying to cash a paycheque. He is playing to find his NHL game again. As a Flames fan, I would love to see Devin Charlie Kenichi Setoguchi play the way he has shown he can. He knows Baertschi, Jooris and Granlund are pushing him this year, and will do what he can to keep them out of Alberta. If he fails, we see one of them up. If he succeeds, we have a good player.

Glencross doesn't see to understand his position is in jeopardy. Maybe it's just me, but Floaty McFloatcross has to be trade consideration at this point. I'd much rather see a performing and desperate Setoguchi playing with Baertschi than McFloat show up enough every 8 games.

Baertschi's comments seem to put him in that naive category as well. That he can't see the opening day jam, see that the Flames would want to give Jones and Setoguchi a shot at the start of the season and keep pushing to make sure he's the guy to steal those spots really shows a short-sighted view of him. That exit interview had to be involving his immense improvements and that they see him in the future. How he left thinking "I don't know what to do!" is pretty worrisome.

Lol what did glencross say or do? That's reaching a little

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

With Baertschi's comments it makes me think his greatest obstacle to him being a regular in the NHL is his attitude. He's got to take the disappointment and use it as motivation. If he sits and pouts he's done. Come to think of it, if he sits and pouts I don't want him on our team.

the fact that he changed his game and "did everything they asked" suggests that he definitely does not pout. i want my players to be disappointed when they fail to reach their goals. he's saying exactly what i'd personally like to hear.