Ongoing General Automotive Thread 2.0

[timun]

Originally Posted by timun

Yeah, as someone who's about as big a Tesla-hater as you'll find, I'm always surprised at how silly complaints about cold-weather performance of an electric car seem. The biggest complaint I've heard is the reduction in range due to battery power being spent on heating the cabin and the battery itself. Which is... whatever, it is what it is, but I think it's silly and unfair to single electric cars out for "reduced range" as a "cold-weather performance issue". All cars have "reduced range" in the winter. My car certainly goes through a hell of a lot more gasoline in the winter than it does in the summer...

Originally Posted by chummer

Saw some stories on the news that Tesla owners during the cold snap were only getting half the range they normally would.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Is he UCB?

Depends: does he wish it was hotter?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You heat in the summer?

Sometimes I dooooooo.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by timun

Yeah, as someone who's about as big a Tesla-hater as you'll find, I'm always surprised at how silly complaints about cold-weather performance of an electric car seem. The biggest complaint I've heard is the reduction in range due to battery power being spent on heating the cabin and the battery itself. Which is... whatever, it is what it is, but I think it's silly and unfair to single electric cars out for "reduced range" as a "cold-weather performance issue". All cars have "reduced range" in the winter. My car certainly goes through a hell of a lot more gasoline in the winter than it does in the summer...

You're ignoring the practical implications of the reduced range in an EV versus an ICE vehicle, and also the fact that the range reduction is more dramatic for EVs, especially the more extreme the temperatures are. And it sure as sh-t isn't a 50% range reduction, which is possible for EVs in extreme weather.

I posted this to Mazrim in another thread but it seems fitting to share it here too:

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Not nearly to the extent that ICE range is, however. And the more extreme the temperature, the more severe the drop is for EVs. This is just a fact of the technology.

However, EVs don't lose efficiency when you go up in elevation (given temperatures being equal) as you notice when you drive a non-turbo ICE vehicle at sea-level in Vancouver and then in Calgary. Non-turbo ICE vehicles will see a noticeable performance and economy hit in Calgary compared to driving in Vancouver, but the EV will perform identically.

The annoying thing is how long it takes to refuel / recharge. Five minutes at a petrol station and an ICE vehicle is full and good to go again, so if you've been putting off refueling for a while and nearly on fumes, a refuel to full is a quick inconvenience. Do the same thing with an EV and it's at least 20-30 minutes just to get to what, 80%? And that assumes you started at 10%.

The bolded bit is key, there's the practical aspect. People get busy and leave sh-t to the last second all the time, and lobbying for more diligence in people is something of a lost cause. But the cost of procrastination when it comes to refueling your car is a 5 minute stop at Shell / Petro / Esso / where ever for a full refuel, and fuel pumps are in such great abundance that it's entirely likely you don't even need to detour from the route you were going. An EV is a 20-minute affair just to partially charge, never mind finding a charging station.

You could make the argument "well, you could probably charge for 10 minutes and get enough range to do whatever you need to do, go home and charge there" and sure, that's possible, but if it isn't your last stop, then you're doing it all over again later.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by zamler

I don't heat it in the winter, not when cars are inside this massively accelerates rust. Nice try though.

Seems like a waste of a heated garage. Having a warm car in the morning is priceless.

Also, the rust theory is largely overstated. Yes, snow melts off cars in a heated garage but it also melts outside when it's salted. In a garage it dries off faster so it's dryer for longer vs. a slow salty melt outside. Also, how many days do you park your car covered in snow? Often, even in the winter, it's dry when you park it and there is nothing to melt.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by kevman

Seems like a waste of a heated garage. Having a warm car in the morning is priceless.

Also, the rust theory is largely overstated. Yes, snow melts off cars in a heated garage but it also melts outside when it's salted. In a garage it dries off faster so it's dryer for longer vs. a slow salty melt outside. Also, how many days do you park your car covered in snow? Often, even in the winter, it's dry when you park it and there is nothing to melt.

Heated garage with a floor drain is where its at!


No moisture issue + warm vehicles = winning

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by kevman

Also, the rust theory is largely overstated. Yes, snow melts off cars in a heated garage but it also melts outside when it's salted. In a garage it dries off faster so it's dryer for longer vs. a slow salty melt outside. Also, how many days do you park your car covered in snow? Often, even in the winter, it's dry when you park it and there is nothing to melt.

Except that heat accelerates oxidation. The vehicle doesn't necessarily dry off faster either, since the melting snow and ice will increase humidity inside the garage, and said humidity is going to be higher inside than it is outside in cold temperatures.

Cold, dry winters like Calgary has are generally responsible for less rust over the winter months than you'll see in more humid places.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Is he UCB?

Yeah You Know ME

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by zamler

Being able to heat the car from anywhere via the app is sooooooooooo nice.

But why, I thought you were down with the cold?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Except that heat accelerates oxidation. The vehicle doesn't necessarily dry off faster either, since the melting snow and ice will increase humidity inside the garage, and said humidity is going to be higher inside than it is outside in cold temperatures.

Cold, dry winters like Calgary has are generally responsible for less rust over the winter months than you'll see in more humid places.

The humidity in our garage this week has been around 10% - everything dries fast at that level!

[zamler]

Originally Posted by kevman

Also, the rust theory is largely overstated.

Not it isn't. I recently replaced a rotted subframe on a friends car it looks pristine from the outside but the repeated heat/cooling destroyed the frame, rear struts, and a bunch of other components. The LH rear strut sheering right off they lost all steering control luckily only spun out. Other cars of the same brand and era that are not stored in a heated garage do NOT have this issue, I know I work on them all the time.

Accelerated stress testing means heat/cold cycles over and over.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by kevman

The humidity in our garage this week has been around 10% - everything dries fast at that level!

Sure. The humidity will be greater as the snow and crap stuck to the car is melting and all that 'drying' (ie: evaporation) is taking place. Relative humidity as a measure is only comparable given the same air temperature.

Let's assume you're like most people with attached, heated, insulated garages, and have a single thermostat and furnace keeping your garage at the same temperature as your home, that temperature being 21°C. It's probably set warmer given the temperatures we've had, but what the hell, 21°C is a common ambient temperature estimate. 21°C, relative humidity of 10%. Peachy.

It's -10°C outside with a relative humidity of 66%. Holy balls, it must be really humid.

Not when you convert relative humidity to actual humidity.

10% humidity at 21°C works out to an absolute humidity of 1.8328 g/m³.
66% humidity at -10°C works out to an absolute humidity of 1.5572 g/m³.

There is still more humidity in your garage at 10% relative humidity. Your garage would need to be 18°C for the absolute humidity to be less than it is outside. And keep in mind the colder it is outside, the less absolute humidity that outside air can hold.


... Wait, why the hell am I doing all this, where the f--k is MathGod?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by zamler

Not it isn't. I recently replaced a rotted subframe on a friends car it looks pristine from the outside but the repeated heat/cooling destroyed the frame, rear struts, and a bunch of other components. The LH rear strut sheering right off they lost all steering control luckily only spun out. Other cars of the same brand and era that are not stored in a heated garage do NOT have this issue, I know I work on them all the time.

Accelerated stress testing means heat/cold cycles over and over.

What era? The 70's? No properly maintained (washed occasionally) car is rotting out in a normal life span being parked in a heated garage.

I've been down this road before of trying to find something, anything, that confirms what's largely an internet theory and all that exists is a few anecdotes. There are too many variables at play to say one way or the other with any certainty.

I'm not too bothered if you want a cold car every morning. I just believe it's a risk that's largely overstated on a few internet forums and has very little actual evidence to back it up.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by kevman

What era? The 70's? No properly maintained (washed occasionally) car is rotting out in a normal life span being parked in a heated garage.

I've been down this road before of trying to find something, anything, that confirms what's largely an internet theory and all that exists is a few anecdotes. There are too many variables at play to say one way or the other with any certainty.

I'm not too bothered if you want a cold car every morning. I just believe it's a risk that's largely overstated on a few internet forums and has very little actual evidence to back it up.

Totally.

Plus just buy a $100 dehumidifier if you want, too. I have one. Keeps the humidity way down.

I'm blown away somebody has a heated garage but doesn't use it when it's cold out haha.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Sure. The humidity will be greater as the snow and crap stuck to the car is melting and all that 'drying' (ie: evaporation) is taking place. Relative humidity as a measure is only comparable given the same air temperature.

Let's assume you're like most people with attached, heated, insulated garages, and have a single thermostat and furnace keeping your garage at the same temperature as your home, that temperature being 21°C. It's probably set warmer given the temperatures we've had, but what the hell, 21°C is a common ambient temperature estimate. 21°C, relative humidity of 10%. Peachy.

It's -10°C outside with a relative humidity of 66%. Holy balls, it must be really humid.

Not when you convert relative humidity to actual humidity.

10% humidity at 21°C works out to an absolute humidity of 1.8328 g/m³.
66% humidity at -10°C works out to an absolute humidity of 1.5572 g/m³.

There is still more humidity in your garage at 10% relative humidity. Your garage would need to be 18°C for the absolute humidity to be less than it is outside. And keep in mind the colder it is outside, the less absolute humidity that outside air can hold.


... Wait, why the hell am I doing all this, where the f--k is MathGod?

Whose keeping their garages at 21°C!? I aint made of money over here.

The math checks out. (I think, I'm not going to actually check it.) But now how does the varying salt content in snow change the actual melting point?

I never said it doesn't, I just said it's a risk that's over stated. I personally wouldn't hesitate parking in a warm garage because of a potential minor increase in corrosion.

If their are actual studies I'd be happy to read them and change my mind. Surely insurance companies have this information, no? Zamler has implied a safety risk based on his anecdotal story. Wouldn't insurance companies be all over this if it were the case? Personally if I were an actuary I would absolutely add premiums to the vehicles that are literally falling apart and causing collisions because they're being parked in a heated garage.

[undercoverbrother]

heated garages...............y'all gotten soft

[kevman]

Honestly, we heated it for when I'm in the shop. Having a warm car is just a bonus I didn't realize how much I'd appreciate - 10/10 luxury, will never go back!

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I've probably said this 100 times over the years, but hell, here's 101

God damn you Chevy and your stupid side post batteries. Why? Why make the connections so small, on the side, and always jam them where there's no room to get a hand in there. Screw you. You shouldn't need an aftermarket battery bolt just to make any connection, yet here we are

On a positive note, I added a noco genius2d trickle charger to one of the trucks. It doesn't get much use so I've been meaning to do this for over a year. Just replaced the battery, the last one only lasted three years since it never got used and just discharged all the time. Saw the trickle chargers get mentioned on the last page, can't recommend them enough. Have used a few over the years

But anyway, screw you chevy

Can I add a #### you Hyundai? They have the batter bolted to the frame using a clamp/holder that is only accessible on the front of the battery at the very bottom, under the insulation and only little tiny Trump hands can reach it. #### off.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by kevman

Whose keeping their garages at 21°C!? I aint made of money over here.

Again, assuming an attached garage using the same furnace as the rest of your house. Get better insulation.

Originally Posted by kevman

The math checks out. (I think, I'm not going to actually check it.) But now how does the varying salt content in snow change the actual melting point?

I never said it doesn't, I just said it's a risk that's over stated. I personally wouldn't hesitate parking in a warm garage because of a potential minor increase in corrosion.

If their are actual studies I'd be happy to read them and change my mind. Surely insurance companies have this information, no? Zamler has implied a safety risk based on his anecdotal story. Wouldn't insurance companies be all over this if it were the case? Personally if I were an actuary I would absolutely add premiums to the vehicles that are literally falling apart and causing collisions because they're being parked in a heated garage.

Salt in the snow lowers the freezing point of water and lowers the electrical resistance of the water, which also accelerates corrosion.

Zamler's example is extreme, and it certainly it isn't stopping me from parking my vehicles inside when it's friggin' cold out. But how metal oxidizes is pretty well understood, and all the conditions for it to do so are pretty ideal inside a nice warm garage when the car is full of slushy salty sh-t from the roads. This is literally just chemistry, this is how things work. Unless you're washing the car inside the garage to get all that crap out of the fenders and doors and off the undercarriage, it's in a space where conditions are more conducive to form corrosion, period. This isn't overstating it, this is just a fact.

Newer vehicles do tend to have better corrosion mitigation built into the metal these days, but they still rust.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by kevman

What era? The 70's? No properly maintained (washed occasionally) car is rotting out in a normal life span being parked in a heated garage.

I've been down this road before of trying to find something, anything, that confirms what's largely an internet theory and all that exists is a few anecdotes. There are too many variables at play to say one way or the other with any certainty.

I'm not too bothered if you want a cold car every morning. I just believe it's a risk that's largely overstated on a few internet forums and has very little actual evidence to back it up.

How many cars do you work on per year? I work on a bunch of SXV10, VCV10, MCV20, SXV20, MCU20, MCV30, GSL30 etc. and their Lexus counterparts all of these cars share a similar or same architecture.

It is extremely obvious which ones are in a heated garage vs. not. I looked at 6-7 cars in the salvage yard all the subframes had similar levels of rust which was minimal I of course bought the best one. None of them were even close to complete failure.

BTW this is basically 100% a result of road salt. Smaller towns in Alberta that don't use road salt but get plenty of snow are great places to buy a used car (I've done this several times).

edit - recently bought a Sienna in Claresholm, bunch of rock chips but zero rust.