That hunter smith pick still boils my blood. That draft in general was incredibly frustrating. I didn't have point on my personal board, but I wanted Demko over McDonald (stupid choice when it was made, stupid choice now) and Christian Dvorak over Smith (Also a totally baffling decision...) Getting to bragging, I also had Pastranak in my top 4- I was trying to go against the curve and thought Draisaitl would be too slow for the league. So I had him 5 and pasta 4.
2014 draft nuked our rebuild. The best pick the org has ever had was a total bust, and we whiffed on every other pick too. 2013's other 1sts flopping hard does suck, but 2014 was the nail in the coffin of our contender hopes.
I still have my doubts. I think if the Oilers had picked Bennett over Draisaitl, we may be somewhat in the same position, if not different. A lot of us are pinpointing the blame on Bennett, but it’s hard to get anything going when you went from a 2nd line LW to having boat anchor Brouwer and Jankowski as line mates.
I think Draisaitl’s success coincided with being able to play with a generational talent in McDavid. Once he started to get some great chemistry with McDavid, I think he really started to figure out and refine his game. That’s the biggest difference between him and Bennett. And now, he’s a play driver and the other is a complimentary player. There’s nothing wrong with that, but we kept utilizing Sam as a play driver, and one who would still be trying to make Junior dekes and costly penalties at inopportune times.
Maybe I am completely off, but that’s just me. We can’t completely blame ourselves for picking Sam at 4 when Sam at 4 was the general consensus. And we have no fortune ball.
Luckily, this trade in my opinion closes an era and opens a new one, a new one where we are to retool our core.
Last edited by ForeverFlameFan; 04-13-2021 at 10:55 AM.
The 2014 draft was a real disappointment. Four picks out of the first 65, and we got Bennett and three guys who didn’t even come close to playing a single NHL game (Mason McDonald, Hunter Smith, Brandon Hickey). Woof.
Not trying to throw rocks but IMO:
2014 draft Treliving hired 1 month before so Treliving did NOT "draft" those guys. That draft was the work of then interim GM Brian Burke.
Burke was not going to draft anyone under 6'0" (I even recall a quote where he said as much but I could be mistaken about reading/seeing it).
It's silly to retrospectively pick out who could've been drafted but Treliving who drafted Mangiapane, Dube, Phillips, Andersson, Kylington may have liked Brayden Point and Montour. Not to mention Demko over MacDonald.
Yes, yes it is silly to look back and say coulda, woulda but 2014 was all truculence and getting Burke types into system.
BPA may have won out or BPA is so subjective a team that drafts centres as top picks in 13,14 won't take a 5'10 centre again and says BPA is another position. I guess who cares after the fact.
I would like to know exactly what teams do when they miss a player : how do they analyze what they missed and what do they learn.
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Some people won't like my thoughts, but I do think that the Flames developed Bennett poorly. Is it all their fault? Of course not. Bennett does bear some responsibility in all of this as well. I think if you were to contrast and compare how Hartley developed Monahan, vs how Gulutzan developed Bennett, and you will see a world of difference.
In Monahan's first year, Hartley tried to pair him with Baertschi - only Baertshi sucked. However, Monahan was the 3rd line centre and did well. That's good for Monahan. Next year, he was paired with Gaudreau, and those clicked and never looked back (until this season anyway, but that's a different story).
Sam's first year was fine - Backlund's winger is a very good place to break out in this league, and I think Hartley put him in a position to succeed there.
Next season, he should have been the third line centre, and I argue that Tkachuk should have been his line-mate. Third line, just like Monahan and Baertschi, and see what would happen. It just never happened that way. After that, Bennett was tossed around the lineup when Brouwer didn't work, or Neal didn't work, or Jankowski didn't work, or Jagr didn't work (which I argue was looking like a good line, but that's beside the point).
Not all prospects develop the same way. Manigapane is developing well, but, he is a winger, and has had lots of reps at wing. Bennett has been thrown all around the lineup, and I think that was partially the problem. I wish Hartley was the coach for another year, as I think Hartley has been good at developing players (did a good job with Tanguay and Hejduk, Monahan and Gaudreau, and helped make Backlund into an elite two-way centre).
Like I said, it isn't all on the Flames, and Bennett does bear some of the responsibility. It also doesn't mean that Bennett WOULD HAVE turned into some star player either. He might have ended up as exactly the same player that he did. My point is that I don't think the Flames handled his development properly, didn't give him the right opportunity to succeed here, and focused too much on 'winning' rather than building (which in hindsight, has shown itself to be 100% right, especially with deals like the Hamonic one).
Bennett may or may not have been part of the solution. I just think that the Flames were way too aggressive in trying to win the Kentucky Derby, but didn't realize that their horse was nothing more than a colt still.
Chances are that the Flames will enter rebuild 2.0 at some point, as even the most well-run organizations have had to do this like St. Louis and Detroit. However, they can start doing this now too. Play Ruzicka and Kylington over guys like Ritchie and Stone.
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Hunter Smith was passed by all teams for 7 rounds in 2013. Sucks that we picked him with a 2nd rounder in 2014. At least that was the Berra pick (I think?) so it wasn't too bad. But would've loved to have a serviceable NHLer picked in the 2nd round
All rankings I read had Demko as the #1 goalie so he was who I also wanted. Was surprised we picked McDonald. Boy did he play bad at the 2015 WJC as well.
Hunter Smith was passed by all teams for 7 rounds in 2013. Sucks that we picked him with a 2nd rounder in 2014. At least that was the Berra pick (I think?) so it wasn't too bad. But would've loved to have a serviceable NHLer picked in the 2nd round
All rankings I read had Demko as the #1 goalie so he was who I also wanted. Was surprised we picked McDonald. Boy did he play bad at the 2015 WJC as well.
Hunter Smith was passed by all teams for 7 rounds in 2013. Sucks that we picked him with a 2nd rounder in 2014. At least that was the Berra pick (I think?) so it wasn't too bad. But would've loved to have a serviceable NHLer picked in the 2nd round
All rankings I read had Demko as the #1 goalie so he was who I also wanted. Was surprised we picked McDonald. Boy did he play bad at the 2015 WJC as well.
Big difference if the Flames go Demko and Montour/Dvorak with those picks instead of McDonald/Smith.
Burke is so overrated, especially by himself. I also have my doubts that Demko is today's Demko if we drafted him - this is such a goalie graveyard, and I cannot believe it is just bad luck. Vancouver also had Clarke to mentor him...
I know it's all hindsight, but I still recall during draft day, a lot of CP posters were disappointed we took MacDonald instead of Demko, and Smith / Hickey instead of Point. Can you imagine the Flames now if it turned out how CP had wanted it to that day? We'd have a potential #1 goalie, and a franchise centreman.
So, speaking of that 2014 Draft, it is really funny how hindsight can affect our perceptions of the way things actually happen. First, the reaction to the Mason McDonald pick were mixed, but at the time Thatcher Demko was not without a lot of risk:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Chief
On Demko, there are rumors he will need sugery on both his hips so thank God the Flamesa re staying far away from him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kn
Sam Constantenau said MacDonald is the best goalie in the draft and if Demko is going to have surgery on both hips...
As for the players most fans were pining for in Rounds #2 and #3...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy
Please let one of Dougherty, MacInnis, Glover or McKeown hold on until 54. We should have been able to take 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sureLoss
McKeown is still on the board
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988
If we can get Cornel at 54 I will be happy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by devo22
Englund gone, Jacobs gone. Good defensemen still on the board: McKeown, Dougherty, Glover, Vanier, Irving, Thomas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty81
I hope Justin Kirkland is on the board for our next pick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy
Despite the terrible draft coverage, I'd love to see Jack Glover or Ryan Collins at 64.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerSteve
Hoping for Jack Glover at 64
A couple posters were eying Point by the time the third round started:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada 02
Peters, Point, Glover at 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal14
Top guys left on my list (some of which are small forwards that we probably don't have interest in):
Brayden Point
Brycen Martin
Anton Karlsson
Alexis Vanier
Aaron Haydon
Chase De Leo
Spencer Watson
Alex Peters
Dysin Mayo
Reid Gardiner
Jacob Middleton
And when he was finally selected at #79, this was the only response...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy
Brayden Point went. Didn't think the Flames were going to take him because of his size, but his scoring potential would have been great at 83.
But he was not even on this Board's radar in round #2, and when he was picked barely anyone noticed. Not a single poster commented when Christian Dvorak was selected.
There sure was a lot of consternation about having missed out on the likes of Roland McKeown, Justin Kirkland and Jack Glover, though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Demko and Dvorak were both rated higher consensus than the picks we missed them in. It was very much a "smartest guys in the room" type of arrangement. Yeah, maybe no one picked out point on the board but it's disingenuous to post two comments worrying about Demko's hips when by and large everyone was SCREAMING about not taking Demko there.
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Yup, draft reactions are always hilarious even live without the benefit of hindsight.
Certain posters always lose their #### when some 17 year old kid they've never seen play before "falls" and the Flames don't pick him either. Even those that do watch junior games will speak with such certainty you'd think they were professional scouts.
Happens every year.
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So, speaking of that 2014 Draft, it is really funny how hindsight can affect our perceptions of the way things actually happen. First, the reaction to the Mason McDonald pick were mixed, but at the time Thatcher Demko was not without a lot of risk:
As for the players most fans were pining for in Rounds #2 and #3...
A couple posters were eying Point by the time the third round started:
And when he was finally selected at #79, this was the only response...
But he was not even on this Board's radar in round #2, and when he was picked barely anyone noticed. Not a single poster commented when Christian Dvorak was selected.
There sure was a lot of consternation about having missed out on the likes of Roland McKeown, Justin Kirkland and Jack Glover, though.
Yeah it's easy to look back with hindsight...and I feel like how people view team building and especially advanced stats has changed over time. Plus we all ready a couple propsect reports and think we are experts all of a sudden, I know I do it.
Looking back at 2014 and after day 1 I had wanted the Flames to take McKeown and Smith in round too, and didn't hate the pick of MacDonald as it happened.
It's funny though because I look back at my mindset then and I think I had fully bought in to the Burke mindset of playing heavy and needing to be bigger.
My knowledge and understanding of advanced stats and prospect likelihood is much different than it was in 2014.
I look back at that now and think "How did I think that prioritizing size in guys like Smith, Hickey, and Bollig was a good idea"
Barf.
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Yeah it's easy to look back with hindsight...and I feel like how people view team building and especially advanced stats has changed over time. Plus we all ready a couple propsect reports and think we are experts all of a sudden, I know I do it.
Looking back at 2014 and after day 1 I had wanted the Flames to take McKeown and Smith in round too, and didn't hate the pick of MacDonald as it happened.
It's funny though because I look back at my mindset then and I think I had fully bought in to the Burke mindset of playing heavy and needing to be bigger.
My knowledge and understanding of advanced stats and prospect likelihood is much different than it was in 2014.
I look back at that now and think "How did I think that prioritizing size in guys like Smith, Hickey, and Bollig was a good idea"
Barf.
I think at the draft, you have to take skill. It's really the only place to get it for cheap. I hate when the Flames draft role players. I think even the 7th round pick should have a high upside to them.
I believe you need size and toughness and veterans in your bottom 6, but I think you can get these through trades and signings (BUT not over priced signings). To me, the third line is where you integrate young prospects and the 4th line is where you put the experienced veteran grinders and you don't pay them more than $1.5 million AAV like a Garnet Hathaway.
I don't have a problem with guys like Ritchie and Nordstrom on the 4th line making minimum wage.
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I always had such mixed feelings on Bennett. I had high hopes for him and wish he could have developed more into the player we all thought he could be but I wish him all the best going forward with Florida.
In the end, I'm happy to see him go. This team needs a fresh look/start, I hope this is just the beginning of some much needed moves.
Demko and Dvorak were both rated higher consensus than the picks we missed them in. It was very much a "smartest guys in the room" type of arrangement.
Well, no. That is just not true. Mason McDonald was the highest ranked goalie by Red Line heading into the 2014 Draft. I suspect a big part of the reason for that were the concerns about Demko's hips:
Quote:
However, at Red Line, we see him as just one of a closely ranked top four grouping. Overall, we find the netminding class to be a mediocre bunch without a true top-end talent, albeit with decent depth through the middle rounds. We expect to see probably eight to 10 goalies selected in the first three rounds in Philadelphia next week.
For Red Line, the No. 1 guy, by a whisker, is Mason McDonald, who combines great length and wingspan with really good flexibility and athleticism for a gangly kid. He barely got to play in the season's first half while backing up a veteran, but blossomed after a midseason trade. McDonald showed improved techniques, strong lateral movement and a willingness to challenge shooters aggressively. For our money, he has the most long-term upside.
NHLCS had McDonald #2 behind Demko.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monahammer
Yeah, maybe no one picked out point on the board but it's disingenuous to post two comments worrying about Demko's hips when by and large everyone was SCREAMING about not taking Demko there.
Here is the entire reaction to the McDonald pick as it played out in real time:
[Spoiler-tags for size —I skipped about a dozen posts in the thread that were responses to previous posts, but this represents a fair cross section of the reaction here to McDonald v. Demko]
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx
Mason McDonald... goaltender early in the 2nd for Calgary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy
EFFF. Terrible terrible terrible.
Stupid goalies and way too high. God damnit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dammage79
Alright, Kamenev or McKeown then! So cool the Flames are getting another good one with 34!
Oooooo McDonald. Okay..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Table 5
Hmm, not a fan of drafting a goalie this high.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaskal
A goalie? Kinda surprising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie
ugh bad pick. McDonald. When there are good defensive prospects on the board
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug
Goalie!
Argh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty81
Demko seemed like the better goalie prospect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatflame
who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsJunky
Oh my. I like that pick. MacDonald has really impressed me. A little early perhaps but I like the fact that they grabbed him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezer
Ya not thrilled with that pick but I guess they know better than us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx
Wow if Vancouver gets McKeown...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SebC
Did we even get the best goalie? Consensus seemed to be Demko.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy27
I'm pretty surprised they took a goalie so early. He was excellent in the top prospects game, but obviously for his age group he is a top guy. Good to keep the stable stocked, since it's so hard to know if a guy like Gillies or Ortio will be able to hold down the number one position and be a top guy in the league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Not a huge fan of this pick, prefer goalies to be taken later. I was in for Demko but not familiar with him as all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy
Nucks take Demko
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey
Really not liking that pick considering who was available. Goalies are too much of a risk to take that high.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorkmaster
Heard that Mason McDonald was one of the top goaltenders in the draft. Forget which draft guide had him as their #1 goaltender for the draft.
Surprised that we went goalie but we'll see how it turns out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poe969
We have decent goalie depth and no depth on D. Why take a goalie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty81
I think he was picked largely on the u-18s because he only played 29 games this season and didn't look great (albeit behind two bad teams).
Canucks take Demko. I think we'll be talking about this for a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy27
I think that the Flames staff would be very, very familiar with a Boston College goalie. If they didn't take him, I'd guess there is a pretty good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame
I am confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Demko goes to the Canucks. He's the guy I wanted in this round, so we'll see how our guy plays out. Good twist to this round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Chief
On Demko, there are rumors he will need sugery on both his hips so thank God the Flamesa re staying far away from him.
McDonald imo is the best goalie prospect in the draft, glad to have him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire
The Flames know Demko well and hey still took McDonald, so I trust them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerSteve
Demko is seriously overrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx
Demko certainly benefited playing behind a good team. McDonald played behind 2 awful teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 868904
I don't know why so many on here wanted Demko, it's not like he played great for BC when it mattered. Flames saw him lots. I remember the game thread for the frozen four and everyone was saying Demko was no good....and now, he's going to the other no goods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saXon
Goalies are a long shot anyways. It'll be 3-4 years before we see if they'll pan out at the NHL level. Have to roll the dice to keep the goaltender depth strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
I wasn't that impressed by Demko in the Boston College games I watched.
Flames needed another goalie prospect and MacDonald was the top goalie on some lists.
Interested to see who we get at 54 now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N26
I saw McDonald in the QMJHL first round against Halifax and he was excellent. PEI was getting vastly outplayed, ridiculously outshot and hugely outscored. Halifax scored 28 times in 4 games. And yet much of the talk was about McDonald. He was awesome. I'll take him
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC
A bunch of goalies went in the span of a few picks. Glad we took the best one according to the scouts.
So, no. No one was "screaming about not taking Demko there." I think most of the frustration about the McDonald pick stemmed from the fact that the Flames picked a goalie—ANY goalie—in the top-fifth of the second round. There was a lot of concern about the depth of the prospect pool on the blue line, and most posters were hoping the Flames would have picked a defensman like Andreas Englund, Julius Bergman, Roland McKeown or Jack Dougherty. A number of posters correctly identified Demko as a better prospect, but this was not an off-the-board draft shock like you imagine it to have occurred.
My point is this: most of us think we remember what happened in NHL entry drafts from nearly a decade ago with crystal clarity. But I think the lesson here is that our memories are very much deeply coloured by what has happened in the years since the draft. Like I said above: people remember a freak-out about Demko or Dvorak or Point that simply did not happen. People remember this because all of our memories are incredibly flawed, and easily susceptible to more current events.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
One of my sons bears a strong resemblance to Bennett and is close in age. As a result, one part of me will miss Sam being part of the Flames. The other part of me will not miss the deeper pain I seemed to suffer every time the camera focused in on his befuddled look after taking an ill-timed (or even deserved) penalty.
One of my sons bears a strong resemblance to Bennett and is close in age. As a result, one part of me will miss Sam being part of the Flames. The other part of me will not miss the deeper pain I seemed to suffer every time the camera focused in on his befuddled look after taking an ill-timed (or even deserved) penalty.
Best of luck Sam!
My oldest son looks like Sean Monahan.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
