[News] Treliving named Leafs GM

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope for the best with Conroy, and I love his energy and Flames history.

But just keep getting this sinking feeling that Calgary just went through 9 years of a new GM learning on the job only to lose him when he's learned from the bumps and bruises.

Toronto gets a guy that never been fired.

Somewhat interesting for those that suggested Treliving was average and wouldn't be employed again.

They also get a guy who never truly built a contender (unless you count Florida).
Still amazes me how many people here mythologize Treliving's tenure while in reality the team didn't achieve all that much. He might have walked away, but he very well could have been fired by this point.

I'm pumped for the Conroy era. Onward and upward.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Igottago

They also get a guy who never truly built a contender (unless you count Florida).
Still amazes me how many people here mythologize Treliving's tenure while in reality the team didn't achieve all that much. He might have walked away, but he very well could have been fired by this point.

I'm pumped for the Conroy era. Onward and upward.

I'm about to feel really gross saying this but

The 2017 Flames were more of a contender than the 2017 Predators. Goaltending and coaching were the difference. Rinne was drafted by Nashville. Gulutzan was a bad hire, and got outcoached by Randy Carlyle, who got clowned by Peter Laviolette. Either way, that team was a lot better than its outcome. John Gibson largely stole that first round series despite everything else.

The 2019 Flames were as much of a contender as teams 2019 Blues. While the Avs series left a bad taste, let's not forget that teams peak at different times. That Flames team peaked early and was the #1 seed in the west, while that blues team peaked at just the right time, winning the Cup despite being DFL in the NHL in January

The 2022 Flames were a contender, too. There wasn't one area they didn't look like one, until a Tanev injury at the worst time cascaded with a Coleman no-goal that was absolutely a goal cascaded with Markstrom going from strength to liability

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But just keep getting this sinking feeling that Calgary just went through 9 years of a new GM learning on the job only to lose him when he's learned from the bumps and bruises.

I'm not a blame Treliving for everything guy, and sure, many jobs you can keep learning and adapting as things around you evolve, but Treliving has been in an NHL front office for 20 years. I don't think being a GM is THAT difficult.


And sometimes you can't learn from your mistakes until you're in a new situation.

[dino7c]

All GMs will make mistakes... nobody has a crystal ball. A lot of it is luck.

Zito is the king of the GMs...Pens beat the Hawks in game 81 and he is the GM that took the presidents trophy winners and made them a 92 point team that missed the playoffs.

Like what can Brad even do...if Matthews wants to sign he will sign, I could be the GM and offer him 14M. It's up to the player, as is how he performs for the next 8 years. He will make you look good or bad.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm about to feel really gross saying this but

The 2017 Flames were more of a contender than the 2017 Predators. Goaltending and coaching were the difference. Rinne was drafted by Nashville. Gulutzan was a bad hire, and got outcoached by Randy Carlyle, who got clowned by Peter Laviolette. Either way, that team was a lot better than its outcome. John Gibson largely stole that first round series despite everything else.

The 2019 Flames were as much of a contender as teams 2019 Blues. While the Avs series left a bad taste, let's not forget that teams peak at different times. That Flames team peaked early and was the #1 seed in the west, while that blues team peaked at just the right time, winning the Cup despite being DFL in the NHL in January

The 2022 Flames were a contender, too. There wasn't one area they didn't look like one, until a Tanev injury at the worst time cascaded with a Coleman no-goal that was absolutely a goal cascaded with Markstrom going from strength to liability

You could probably make any playoff team a contender if you're going to look at it so openly.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

People don't realize this but most professionals are not as cut throat and malicious as they think. Lawyers, executives, other folks with inside knowledge move firms all the time. They sign NDAs or even if they don't there's understandings that confidential info is confidential.

The GM community is small and if one of them plays dirty it comes back to haunt them. Hell, Burke was furious at Lowe for a legal offer sheet.

It's funny how little critical thought people apply to these notions. You can look like a superstar for five minutes in a meeting by sharing some privileged information...but then everyone realizes you can't be trusted and it's actually a negative mark on you.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That’s the bigger thing for me too. He compiled scouting reports and lists of players to target through trade or free agency, while on the Flames dime. Probably the same lists that the Flames management is also working off of going into the off-season. Now they are going to be competing against Treliving and the Leafs for these resources, and we know which market has the upper hand there. He also knows the inside info on which players may want out and can lowball the Flames based on that info.

That’s why I didn’t mind if the Flames prevented him from talking to other teams. It’s different if a GM is fired, but he chose to leave.

Then the Flames should not accept that offer. Market value is market value.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Listened to some clips from the presser and I see Treliving still loves his management consulting terms, but doesn’t quite know how to use them.

“I’m coming in from an outside lens”.

Needs a year with McKinsey to clean that up.

??? What's wrong or unclear there? Maybe not the most precise wording you'd choose for a written statement, but it seems like a perfectly reasonable statement

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I hope for the best with Conroy, and I love his energy and Flames history.

But just keep getting this sinking feeling that Calgary just went through 9 years of a new GM learning on the job only to lose him when he's learned from the bumps and bruises.

Toronto gets a guy that never been fired.

Somewhat interesting for those that suggested Treliving was average and wouldn't be employed again.

Well I am someone that suggested he was average. Average GM’s seem to get employed all the time and with Treliving’s name, I’m not surprised he got a job quickly.

Your point about experience is definitely valid but after 9 years, I still don’t see a ton of evidence of learning from his mistakes and I personally am not too thrilled about the spot the club is in. I do think Treliving learned a lot about GMing a rebuilding club which would make him valuable. But that’s not the situation here, nor Toronto. I sure hope Conroy doesn’t need 9 years to learn the ropes.

I’m not to worried about the Leafs capitalizing on his experience with the Flames. Treliving is definitely skilled at extracting value when selling an asset so I hope Conroy stays away from targeting any Leafs. But if there is a player on the Flames that BT covets, he has shown time and again he will pay a premium. So I really hope he wants someone here.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I am someone that suggested he was average. Average GM’s seem to get employed all the time and with Treliving’s name, I’m not surprised he got a job quickly.

Your point about experience is definitely valid but after 9 years, I still don’t see a ton of evidence of learning from his mistakes and I personally am not too thrilled about the spot the club is in. I do think Treliving learned a lot about GMing a rebuilding club which would make him valuable. But that’s not the situation here, nor Toronto. I sure hope Conroy doesn’t need 9 years to learn the ropes.

I’m not to worried about the Leafs capitalizing on his experience with the Flames. Treliving is definitely skilled at extracting value when selling an asset so I hope Conroy stays away from targeting any Leafs. But if there is a player on the Flames that BT covets, he has shown time and again he will pay a premium. So I really hope he wants someone here.

I agree with you on Treliving was an average GM. Let's look back on some of his trades and signings.

On 2014, he got Bollig from Chicago for a 3rd pick at the draft. That's a player Chicago had to trade to be compliance and still got a 3rd round pick from him. They should pay us something to take on Bollig's contract.

On July 1, 2016, he signed Brouwer to 4 years $16M contract. Just 2 years into that contract, he had to buy Brouwer out. Leaving the team with dead cap hit for 4 years. Did he learn from the Bollig trade?

July 2, 2018, he double down on Neal, giving Neal a 5 years contract worth $28.75M. Ended up had to trade Neal to the Oilers for a anchor for anchor trade. Did he learn from the Brouwer signing?

June 28, 2017, he spent stunningly a 1st and 2 seconds for Hamonic. Islanders GM at the time must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Then, he traded Monahan and a FIRST to Montreal because he wants to sign Kadri and needed to cap space. So it's pretty much a 1st and Monahan for Kadri.

And his coaches hires were horrific. Because he hired GG and didn't know how to develop Bennett and at the end he had to trade Bennett.

All and all, I'm not saying he is a horrible GM, he's just average.

[bluejays]

For some of these things it seems like he gets fully invested and has to "win". At least from the outside it looks like once he's committed to the cause he has to follow through with it. His worst deals were the ones involving term added. He seemed to never learn from those. In fact he probably thought there's no way they're coming to Calgary but the incentive is a couple extra years. Terrible to do those deals to past prime non-core players. Why won't he do it in Toronto? Shanahan. He's avoided doing any of that to this point...no chance Treliving is allowed to do it there.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by shadowlord

I disagree that McDavid & Draisaitl's contracts are the problem in Edmonton. If anything, those contracts are yielding very good value for the cap hit.

The problem is that the rest of the team is overpaid for how much the supporting cast actually delivers. Whether it's a premium to be paid because of the City of Edmonton, or an overpay because McDavid inflates everyone else's numbers.

Those terrible other contracts are the ones that prevent the team from winning a cup. Scoring has never been their problem. Forwards and defensemen who can keep pucks out of their own net is their biggest issue.

McDavid taking a discount while Kassian got paaaiiidddd always makes me smile!

[Boreal]

Treliving’s strength was the business side of staff management and negotiations. His weakness was player assessments.

He delegates really well and assesses, hires, & keeps quality people who he supports and trusts.

Listening to his interviews in Toronto today reaffirmed a lot of this.

As GM here, he was the chief talent evaluator. His philosophy dictated the style the team played and with Burke he was tasked with finding the players to play it.

Burke picked him in part because they have similar philosophies on the game.

What is funny is how Toronto fired Burke 10 years ago only to hire another guy he mentored.

Shanahan will be his oversite on most of these decisions, and could/should provide some sober second thoughts.

It would be interesting to get Conroy’s perspective on what his decison was on the Brouwer & Neal signings.

Did he push back? He won’t say anything publicly that would hurt his relationship with Brad.

Either way he most likely learned from the mistakes, and not accurately assessing the actual state of the team’s maturation.

[CliffFletcher]

People complaining about the Brouwer and Neal signings might want to go back and look at the UFA markets at the time. When you need a top-six forward, and you don’t have anything coming up in the system to step into that role right away, you either have to trade away draft capital, or go to the UFA market. And the UFA market means overpaying for aging players.

Here are the major UFA deals in the summer of 2016:

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/20...-agent-tracker

Stamkos aside (he never went to market), the only one that looks good in hindsight is Perron. Every other deal - Lucic, Okposo, Eriksson, Ladd, Backes - looks as bad or worse than Brouwer.

Here are the deals from 2018:

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/20...-agent-tracker

Again, other than the players like Carlson who didn’t go to market, I don’t see any great signings there.

So if people want to say NHL GMs should steer clear of UFAs and rely on drafting and developing, that’s a valid criticism. But there’s no alternate timeline where someone else in Treliving’s shoes in 2016 and 2018 does markedly better in the UFA market. The UFA market is what it is - a place to pick up proven NHLers without giving up anything except for bad contracts.

[NegativeSpace]

UFA is a way to supplement your team with specific needs. The team was always looking for a top six right shot winger. That led them to Brower which I understood at the time. When they signed Neal I was concerned that it was another Brower situation and I wasn’t alone. While I think Neal was a mistake, no one could have predicted how spectacular he was going to drop. I thought he’d be more of a third liner. I didn’t think he’d be out of the nhl before the contract ended.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I agree with you on Treliving was an average GM. Let's look back on some of his trades and signings.

On 2014, he got Bollig from Chicago for a 3rd pick at the draft. That's a player Chicago had to trade to be compliance and still got a 3rd round pick from him. They should pay us something to take on Bollig's contract.

On July 1, 2016, he signed Brouwer to 4 years $16M contract. Just 2 years into that contract, he had to buy Brouwer out. Leaving the team with dead cap hit for 4 years. Did he learn from the Bollig trade?

July 2, 2018, he double down on Neal, giving Neal a 5 years contract worth $28.75M. Ended up had to trade Neal to the Oilers for a anchor for anchor trade. Did he learn from the Brouwer signing?

June 28, 2017, he spent stunningly a 1st and 2 seconds for Hamonic. Islanders GM at the time must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Then, he traded Monahan and a FIRST to Montreal because he wants to sign Kadri and needed to cap space. So it's pretty much a 1st and Monahan for Kadri.

And his coaches hires were horrific. Because he hired GG and didn't know how to develop Bennett and at the end he had to trade Bennett.

All and all, I'm not saying he is a horrible GM, he's just average.

That's because you cherry picked bad trades, let's look back at some of his other trades:
March 2 2015 Baertschi for pick that was Rasmus Andersson
July 27 2015 trades two thirds for Kylington (One turned into Adin Hill)
June 23 2018 Hamilton, Ferland, and Fox for Lindholm and Hanafin (Two players who didn't want to be here for a pretty great return)
July 28, 2021 Zadorov for a 3rd
Feb 14, 2022 Toffoli for two scrubs a first and a fifth
also got Vladar for a 3rd as well.

He was better than average when it came to trades, not great with retaining or building pick equity and free agents there are some hits but a lot of whiffs.
Last year when we traded for Huberdeau and Weegar more than half the forum was gargling his ball sack, how many threads are there where he was being worshipped?
It's always strikes me as funny how we tear down players/management on other teams until they become Flames, then they are gods and vice versa when they leave.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

They also get a guy who never truly built a contender (unless you count Florida).
Still amazes me how many people here mythologize Treliving's tenure while in reality the team didn't achieve all that much. He might have walked away, but he very well could have been fired by this point.

I'm pumped for the Conroy era. Onward and upward.

Not sure I have to be knee deep in mythology to have a different opinion.

I think Treliving is a solid GM coming out of a very difficult market.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

That's because you cherry picked bad trades, let's look back at some of his other trades:
March 2 2015 Baertschi for pick that was Rasmus Andersson
July 27 2015 trades two thirds for Kylington (One turned into Adin Hill)
June 23 2018 Hamilton, Ferland, and Fox for Lindholm and Hanafin (Two players who didn't want to be here for a pretty great return)
July 28, 2021 Zadorov for a 3rd
Feb 14, 2022 Toffoli for two scrubs a first and a fifth
also got Vladar for a 3rd as well.

He was better than average when it came to trades, not great with retaining or building pick equity and free agents there are some hits but a lot of whiffs.
Last year when we traded for Huberdeau and Weegar more than half the forum was gargling his ball sack, how many threads are there where he was being worshipped?
It's always strikes me as funny how we tear down players/management on other teams until they become Flames, then they are gods and vice versa when they leave.

Then there are posters that hate all things Flames until they leave and then defend them to no end.

The word fan is short for fanatic

[chedder]

I'm in the boat that, like in any business, there are a few really good, smart gm's that get it. There are a few that are really bad. Then, most fall into the average category.

Average is where Treliving falls.

I also believe that luck, nepotism, and just being in the right place at the right time is very prevalent in the hockey business in general (as in life).

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People complaining about the Brouwer and Neal signings might want to go back and look at the UFA markets at the time. When you need a top-six forward, and you don’t have anything coming up in the system to step into that role right away, you either have to trade away draft capital, or go to the UFA market. And the UFA market means overpaying for aging players.

Here are the major UFA deals in the summer of 2016:

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/20...-agent-tracker

Stamkos aside (he never went to market), the only one that looks good in hindsight is Perron. Every other deal - Lucic, Okposo, Eriksson, Ladd, Backes - looks as bad or worse than Brouwer.

Here are the deals from 2018:

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/20...-agent-tracker

Again, other than the players like Carlson who didn’t go to market, I don’t see in any great signings there.

So if people want to say NHL GMs should steer clear of UFAs and rely on drafting and developing, that’s a valid criticism. But there’s no alternate timeline where someone else in Treliving’s shoes in 2016 an 2018 do markedly better in the UFA market. The UFA market is what it is - a place to pick up proven NHLers without giving up anything except for bad contracts.

There is a world where you just don’t go into the UFA market until you are clearly an elite team and have your young talent locked down longterm. That would have been the approach that I would have preferred. The Flames had to have been a top 15 team in the league, maybe even top 10, in terms of total value of contracts given out to UFA’s over his tenure. Almost none of them (exception being Tanev) were value for the money they were given.

The Flames choose a different approach, signing a decent chunk of your players to short term show me contracts and then having them show them (like good your players almost always do) and then signing them to expensive contracts. Did it with Mangiapane, did it with Dube, did it with Bennett, did it with Tkachuk.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I have to be knee deep in mythology to have a different opinion.

I think Treliving is a solid GM coming out of a very difficult market.

And stepping into the most difficult market there is.
If Calgary was difficult, I don't see how Toronto is somehow going to be less challenging, the pressure and interference is likely going to intensify tenfold.

I think it's letting him off the hook pretty easily to keep blaming the lack of results on Calgary.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

And stepping into the most difficult market there is.
If Calgary was difficult, I don't see how Toronto is somehow going to be less challenging, the pressure and interference is likely going to intensify tenfold.

I think it's letting him off the hook pretty easily to keep blaming the lack of results on Calgary.

I think Treliving for the most part

- boosted the team's drafting record
- was an ace on RFA negotiations
- was better than average on the trade front
- biggest weakness was UFA signings and coaching choice

The coaching thing gets further dissected with how you read the Peters situation. I don't see him at fault for Peters off ice issues decades before so really it's down to a bad Gulutzan choice.

Toronto has media pressure.

But unlimited resources, and certainly less no trade list issues when trying to trade for players.