Breaking: Biden will not seek re-election

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Azure

Now when they haven't done that its 'omg the Republicans are terrible' and don't bring up what we ignored for months.

That isn't really what the issue is. They have been calling Biden incompetent for months and he decided to not run again. Fair criticism that he should have stepped aside earlier.

The messaging that the Democrats pulled a coup is bonkers especially when Trump tried to pull a real coup.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

I agree, I'm not arguing that I don't look down on them (although "sneer" was a quote FWIW).

I look down on people who don't believe in climate change.

The "solution" IMO is to figure out where they are getting this misinformation and sue those sources out of existence. Fox + Alex Jones spring to mind.

They will never be receptive to the truth when that sort of propaganda is being consumed.

This is it in a nutshell. It's hard to be respectful of those who believe in absolute verifiable bull####. It's not points of view on policy and morality. It's just fact vs fiction.

How do you respectfully debate and discuss and convince a flat-earther that the earth is round? They can't be convinced with evidence, because evidence is just made-up by the deep state, Clinton Foundation, liberal elites, blah blah. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Then you'd expect to see a spike around 1996-2004 which doesn't exist. It's been a relatively steady shift.

Facebook and YouTube started around 2006. Twitter in 2010. TikTok in 2016.

The pervasiveness of misinformation and propaganda spreading online has increased gradually over time.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Facebook and YouTube started around 2006. Twitter in 2010. TikTok in 2016.

The pervasiveness of misinformation and propaganda spreading online has increased gradually over time.

Fox News predates all of that and created the model. I still blame Murdoch for most of this.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t think it’s a stretch to think there’s a strong correlation between earning in the top 10-40 per cent of income and being in the managerial class.

I think you're failing to draw a distinction between the top 10-40% and the top 1%.

Were it not for right-wing propaganda, the 1% would be the only ones voting republican.

Originally Posted by Bonded

That isn't really what the issue is. They have been calling Biden incompetent for months and he decided to not run again. Fair criticism that he should have stepped aside earlier.

The messaging that the Democrats pulled a coup is bonkers especially when Trump tried to pull a real coup.

No one of any clout or name recognition ran in the primary, because it was widely believed that a contested primary would open up fractures in the party and hurt the nominee's chances of defeating Trump. So Biden quickly secured the delegates he needed to win the nomination, and everyone unified behind him. Thereafter, he started showing more concerning signs of communication difficulties, culminating in the disastrous debate performance. He tumbled in the polls until eventually he realized that he couldn't win the election. And so he dropped out and passed the torch to Kamala.

Claims of Democrats "ignoring democracy" are nonsense. Democrats made the best decisions they could with the information they had, with the goal of defeating Trump at the forefront. It was Biden's decision and his decision alone to step aside. He didn't, until he did.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem is that small population has an outweighed effect on society, because they have the ears of politicians. By not acknowledging and pointing out how this is happening, we risk being the victims of the tyranny of the minority. You can pretend to brush them off as a small proportion of the population, but when our premier is actually one of them, and they run the governing parties bureaucracy, the picture is a lot more complicated than that. Forgive me if I don't want to have our societal choices by a group of people who have already lost their ####ing minds.

I think I get where you’re coming from but I wouldn’t put the blame for that on the small groups, I blame the people who still support parties that are in cahoots with them. Same concept applies when you consider the the small segment of incredibly wealthy people who buy politicians for their benefit at the detriment of others who aren’t as well off. They wouldn’t be able to keep doing it if the majority of voters collectively denounced those politicians for it and refused to vote for them.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Fox News predates all of that and created the model. I still blame Murdoch for most of this.

The Russians are loving it. Using some pretty basic psych techniques to steer the herd where they want them to go.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Their big economic pillar this term has been student loan forgiveness.

If you didn't finish high school and work at a rural Dollar General for $8/hour, hearing that someone else is getting $50-$100k in tax money to cover the loans they took out for college is not going to feel fair.

The Obama administration got health care for that demographic with the exchanges/subsidies - the Dems should lean into the "we care and are making your life better" messaging.

Most of the debt forgiveness has been given to people who have been making payments for years, have already paid back the principal, but are struggling to make headway against the interest.

Agreed on the last point though.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

This is it in a nutshell. It's hard to be respectful of those who believe in absolute verifiable bull####. It's not points of view on policy and morality. It's just fact vs fiction.

While it can be a challenge and you won’t be able to convince everyone, in my experience respectful persistence does (eventually) change the minds of more people than you would think. Though it’s not usually a fun trip from point A to B. For the most part I think we’re just stuck in cycle where people seem to entrench themselves in their positions and try to convince others that they’re right without getting to the root of why the other person thinks they’re wrong.

How do you respectfully debate and discuss and convince a flat-earther that the earth is round? They can't be convinced with evidence, because evidence is just made-up by the deep state, Clinton Foundation, liberal elites, blah blah. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position.

I guess my question would be why waste your time debating an issue that has zero real effect on us either way in the first place when you could be discussing more productive things that are simpler to explain or that you could find some common ground on. I mean seriously, what is going to change in either of your lives if one of you successfully convinces the other that the earth is round or flat?

You’re never going to get everyone to agree on everything so there’s no sense wasting time and energy on things like that. Instead focus on issues that actually affect you and you’ll be less drained by endless debates that don’t matter which in turn should help you remain more calm and respectful when engaging with someone who doesn’t agree with you.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

No one of any clout or name recognition ran in the primary, because it was widely believed that a contested primary would open up fractures in the party and hurt the nominee's chances of defeating Trump. So Biden quickly secured the delegates he needed to win the nomination, and everyone unified behind him. Thereafter, he started showing more concerning signs of communication difficulties, culminating in the disastrous debate performance. He tumbled in the polls until eventually he realized that he couldn't win the election. And so he dropped out and passed the torch to Kamala.

Claims of Democrats "ignoring democracy" are nonsense. Democrats made the best decisions they could with the information they had, with the goal of defeating Trump at the forefront. It was Biden's decision and his decision alone to step aside. He didn't, until he did.

100%. The goal is a Trump loss and they are already facing a fight. The GOP is acting like Biden won the election and then handed the keys to Harris the day after.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

How do you respectfully debate and discuss and convince a flat-earther that the earth is round?

The correct protocol when a flat earther reveals themselves is to say:

"The earth was flat... until they buried yo mama."

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Most of the debt forgiveness has been given to people who have been making payments for years, have already paid back the principal, but are struggling to make headway against the interest.

Agreed on the last point though.

I'm not saying student loan reform is bad policy, I'm saying it plays badly with the uneducated working poor, many of whom also struggle with high interest debt they took on for good reasons.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think I get where you’re coming from but I wouldn’t put the blame for that on the small groups, I blame the people who still support parties that are in cahoots with them. Same concept applies when you consider the the small segment of incredibly wealthy people who buy politicians for their benefit at the detriment of others who aren’t as well off. They wouldn’t be able to keep doing it if the majority of voters collectively denounced those politicians for it and refused to vote for them.

That's the thing, like the Tea Party taking over the Republicans, or all the times it has happened with Canadian Conservatives they find a juicy target with popularity, and before the electorate can realize what has actually happened(if they ever do) they assume the benefits of the previous moderate party, and pivot. I'm not sure why the right is so vulnerable to this, but they keep letting it happen(and inviting and egging iton in many cases).

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

This is it in a nutshell. It's hard to be respectful of those who believe in absolute verifiable bull####. It's not points of view on policy and morality. It's just fact vs fiction.

How do you respectfully debate and discuss and convince a flat-earther that the earth is round? They can't be convinced with evidence, because evidence is just made-up by the deep state, Clinton Foundation, liberal elites, blah blah. You can't reason someone out of an unreasonable position.

I will make time all day for an ignorant person. We all start there at various points in our journey.

It's the aggressively stupid that don't require a lot of respect.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's the thing, like the Tea Party taking over the Republicans, or all the times it has happened with Canadian Conservatives they find a juicy target with popularity, and before the electorate can realize what has actually happened(if they ever do) they assume the benefits of the previous moderate party, and pivot. I'm not sure why the right is so vulnerable to this, but they keep letting it happen(and inviting and egging iton in many cases).

Religion plays a big factor in this. I once had a conservative talk to me about their difference in worldview. It basically boiled down to the difference in definition between what the "truth" was. He said that Christianity is the only worldview that provided a comprehensive explanation for all things in the world and it could be described as "the truth". i.e. they've decided what their they believe is already right and no absence of rationale or evidence provided to counter their worldview is likely to be accepted.

Couple this with a pervasive "us vs. them" messaging, which tells them they are the chosen group and removes a lot of ability to accept internal criticism, and you have a pliable and easily manipulated voter group.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's the thing, like the Tea Party taking over the Republicans, or all the times it has happened with Canadian Conservatives they find a juicy target with popularity, and before the electorate can realize what has actually happened(if they ever do) they assume the benefits of the previous moderate party, and pivot. I'm not sure why the right is so vulnerable to this, but they keep letting it happen(and inviting and egging iton in many cases).

Fair enough, but I still think it can be countered with solid opposition. Right now the democrats need better messaging than “we’re not trump, trump bad, remember Jan 6?..etc”

[blankall]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Fair enough, but I still think it can be countered with solid opposition. Right now the democrats need better messaging than “we’re not trump, trump bad, remember Jan 6?..etc”

Biden wasn't really capable of delivering that messaging. Pretty difficult to do so, when you're referring to Trump as your own vice president. Harris should hopefully bring some life into the campaign.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

they think all blacks are progressive and democrats

So far it's just more GirlySports stories

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Interesting question, to say the least. I am reticent to put people in “class” buckets, but for the sake of argument, I’ll assume we are talking about people with high school educations who have jobs.

It may not be what they are saying, but perhaps what they aren’t saying that Trump is. I think he skewered Clinton at the debates by bringing up NAFTA and she had a difficult time parrying it. Which is fascinating to me, because Trumpism (such as it is) differs greatly from free market capitalism in that way. Protectionism benefits domestic producers and punishes domestic consumers, for an aggregate loss. But it does redistribute income to these newly (I’d argue, artificially) created jobs. And people see and feel that. He also didn’t want to repeal the ACA, instead arguing to replace it. He didn’t want to raise the retirement age for SSI and Medicare. He was very non interventionist with respect to foreign policy. He didn’t speak much about the debt - an esoteric macroeconomic concept for most of the people we are discussing and not something they see and feel.

They weren’t classic small government 2010s conservative American positions. In many ways he sounded like Ross Perot and changed the belief structure.

Here’s a map showing the swing from 2012 to 2016 by county.



He made gains in every county on the Canadian border, even, but for Whatcom (WA). I don’t believe the notion that these people turned from voting for Obama to Trump simply because of internet propaganda. The internet existed and had been widely adopted long before then.

The aggregate loss is very much debatable. On the surface most people would feel that the access to a wide selection of cheap consumer goods is a net benefit. That perception is probably all that matters in this context, but I am not at all convinced that our present state of consumerism is actually a net benefit to our overall QOL.


As for the internet, social media took a pretty dark turn in the early 2010s. Social media had plenty of harms before then, but it was around this time it really started to break brains.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I think you're failing to draw a distinction between the top 10-40% and the top 1%.

Were it not for right-wing propaganda, the 1% would be the only ones voting republican.



No one of any clout or name recognition ran in the primary, because it was widely believed that a contested primary would open up fractures in the party and hurt the nominee's chances of defeating Trump. So Biden quickly secured the delegates he needed to win the nomination, and everyone unified behind him. Thereafter, he started showing more concerning signs of communication difficulties, culminating in the disastrous debate performance. He tumbled in the polls until eventually he realized that he couldn't win the election. And so he dropped out and passed the torch to Kamala.

Claims of Democrats "ignoring democracy" are nonsense. Democrats made the best decisions they could with the information they had, with the goal of defeating Trump at the forefront. It was Biden's decision and his decision alone to step aside. He didn't, until he did.

I’d disagree with your timeline of events here, there was information available to suggest that Biden was not ready to run available. It was ignored. The democratic leadership failed to force Biden into a public debate type setting as part of the primary process. A debate last November was unlikely to have different results than the Trump debate.

The WSJ had been running Biden is in decline with evidence being his decline in public appearances and various other interactions since at least April 2023. This was a known issue or if it wasn’t clearly known than the DNC leadership failed.