Breaking: Biden will not seek re-election

[Johnny Makarov]

She also set a record for donations in 24 hours with $81million.

Come on Elon, sell more TSLA stock and then burn the money! lol

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Then why weren't they 60 years ago?

The internet didn't exist 60 years ago.

That isn't my takeaway. Did you see the chart?

There are policy and rhetoric changes that have occurred in mainstream left-wing parties that have increasingly ostracized such people.

I read the article, it's full of lies. Things like "militant environmentalism" and "militant trans ideology" are things that only exist on the fringes of society and are not the policies of the Democratic party.

Taking bold action on climate change (required given how long it has been neglected) is not the same thing as "militant environmentalism". Giving legal protections to LGBTQ people is not the same thing as "militant trans ideology".

Right-wing propaganda deliberately uses misnomers and sensationalized language to completely mischaracterize certain things. And it's destroying our society.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Locke

Tune in on Tuesday Nights for AMC's new hit show!

"Breaking Biden"

Where Joe Biden cooks meth in a Winnebago!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that when looking at the thread title.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GGG

Not surprised but a change in approach when reaching out to less educated voters is required. Saying you are stupid or racist if you vote for Trump might be true but it isn’t going to sway anyone.

Understood.

If you have any ideas for better outreach methods, I'm all ears!

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

The internet didn't exist 60 years ago.



I read the article, it's full of lies. Things like "militant environmentalism" and "militant trans ideology" are things that only exist on the fringes of society and are not the policies of the Democratic party.

Taking bold action on climate change (required given how long it has been neglected) is not the same thing as "militant environmentalism". Giving legal protections to LGBTQ people is not the same thing as "militant trans ideology".

Right-wing propaganda deliberately uses misnomers and sensationalized language to completely mischaracterize certain things. And it's destroying our society.

Paul Embery of the UK Labour Party said those things, not the author. It was a quote.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Paul Embery of the UK Labour Party said those things, not the author. It was a quote.

That quote was the entire point of the article. Otherwise, what "policies and rhetoric" are "alienating the working class"? Please clarify.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Understood.

If you have any ideas for better outreach methods, I'm all ears!

Part of the problem is 'the left' has won so comprehensively it has taken it's victories for granted and assumed they are set in stone, we all take health and safety, holidays, pensions and welfare even minimum wage and public transport for granted

We need to be constantly reminding the voters that their pension used to be considered 'woke'

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

That quote was the entire point of the article. Otherwise, what "policies and rhetoric" are "alienating the working class"? Please clarify.

Not the French and American parts but definitely the British part - fair point.

So if the internet either didn't exist or was off limits to uneducated people, you don't think this would have occurred?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by butterfly

So if the internet didn't exist, you don't think this would have occurred?

Yes I do think right-wing propaganda spreading online is the main reason for this.

I ask you again, what policies or rhetoric from the Democratic party is turning off working class voters, according to you?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Understood.

If you have any ideas for better outreach methods, I'm all ears!

Well I think number one is to go back to Clinton’s its the economy, but to recognize that the stock market is not the economy for most working class people.

It’s quit ceding the economic argument to the right. Fight back against the rhetoric that the economy performs better under the right. Make simple points. Quit appealing to people’s sense of right and wrong and instead appeal to there pocket book.

What do most people want? A safe environment to raise their family with enough money to not worry about food or housing and a little extra for having fun. If yourcampaign does not affect those things then it’s not going to work.

The right has such simple arguments this boogeyman is making your life worse. We will stop it.

The Dems have only one argument like that and it’s not universal and that’s taking away abortion rights. The rest is all complex and poorly named.

So it’s Projext 2025 and Trump will raise your taxes and eliminate your OT while giving tax breaks to the ultra wealthy elites.

Pound that message home

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Yes I do think right-wing propaganda spreading online is the main reason for this.

I ask you again, what policies or rhetoric from the Democratic party is turning off working class voters, according to you?

Interesting question, to say the least. I am reticent to put people in “class” buckets, but for the sake of argument, I’ll assume we are talking about people with high school educations who have jobs.

It may not be what they are saying, but perhaps what they aren’t saying that Trump is. I think he skewered Clinton at the debates by bringing up NAFTA and she had a difficult time parrying it. Which is fascinating to me, because Trumpism (such as it is) differs greatly from free market capitalism in that way. Protectionism benefits domestic producers and punishes domestic consumers, for an aggregate loss. But it does redistribute income to these newly (I’d argue, artificially) created jobs. And people see and feel that. He also didn’t want to repeal the ACA, instead arguing to replace it. He didn’t want to raise the retirement age for SSI and Medicare. He was very non interventionist with respect to foreign policy. He didn’t speak much about the debt - an esoteric macroeconomic concept for most of the people we are discussing and not something they see and feel.

They weren’t classic small government 2010s conservative American positions. In many ways he sounded like Ross Perot and changed the belief structure.

Here’s a map showing the swing from 2012 to 2016 by county.



He made gains in every county on the Canadian border, even, but for Whatcom (WA). I don’t believe the notion that these people turned from voting for Obama to Trump simply because of internet propaganda. The internet existed and had been widely adopted long before then.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by butterfly

It may not be what they are saying, but perhaps what they aren’t saying that Trump is. I think he skewered Clinton at the debates by bringing up NAFTA and she had a difficult time parrying it. Which is fascinating to me, because Trumpism (such as it is) differs greatly from free market capitalism in that way. Protectionism benefits domestic producers and punishes domestic consumers, for an aggregate loss. But it does redistribute income to these newly (I’d argue, artificially) created jobs. And people see and feel that. He also didn’t want to repeal the ACA, instead arguing to replace it. He didn’t want to raise the retirement age for SSI and Medicare. He was very non interventionist with respect to foreign policy. He didn’t speak much about the debt - an esoteric macroeconomic concept for most of the people we are discussing and not something they see and feel.

All of this basically translates to "it pays to lie".

NAFTA and USMCA are almost identical.

He never had any intention of replacing the ACA. Simply saying "I'm gonna replace it and it's gonna be great" was all some people needed to hear I guess.

The world was just as chaotic while Trump was in office, it's just that there weren't high-profile conflicts such as Ukraine and Gaza happening at the time. You can be sure that Putin's decision to hold off on the invasion until after the 2020 election, and Netenyahu's decision to go scorched-earth in response to Oct 7, were both taken (among other reasons) with the intention of helping Trump's election chances and hurting Biden's.

People do feel budget deficits - it takes the form of inflation. But, alas, many people do not realize this.

He made gains in every county on the Canadian border, even, but for Whatcom (WA).

Not surprising considering they are rural counties. An increase in rural-urban divide is something we've been seeing in more places than just the US.

I don’t believe the notion that these people turned from voting for Obama to Trump simply because of internet propaganda. The internet existed and had been widely adopted long before then.

Now you're moving the goalposts. We were talking about a 60 year trend of non-college-educated workers moving toward the right, not just about one election cycle.

But I'd argue that the right-wing media ecosystem has become much more pervasive and well funded than it was in the 2012 election season.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Now you're moving the goalposts. We were talking about a 60 year trend of non-college-educated workers moving toward the right, not just about one election cycle.

But I'd argue that the right-wing media ecosystem has become much more pervasive and well funded than it was in the 2012 election season.

Then you'd expect to see a spike around 1996-2004 which doesn't exist. It's been a relatively steady shift.

Why are places with a plurality (in some cases, an actual majority) of Mormons like eastern Idaho, all of Utah, and northern Arizona immune to this propaganda? Might they have been reluctant to vote for Trump because of his moral misgivings? Maybe?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

60 years ago the working class still remembered that the bosses would happily put their kids up the chimneys or down the mines given half a chance, I can remember my grandad telling me about being ill before universal healthcare and having his knee stitched up by a Neighbour who was a furniture upholsterer because my great gran couldn't afford to take him to a Dr, what has happened is we all have become immune from suffering, hunger and death, we don't take politics seriously anymore because we dont think anything terrible will happen if we vote for morons like Trump and Boris Johnson or dumb arsed ideas like Brexit

Their bosses today are mostly Democrats. So sticking it to ‘the boss’ means something different now.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...emocrats-trump

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Yes I do think right-wing propaganda spreading online is the main reason for this.

I ask you again, what policies or rhetoric from the Democratic party is turning off working class voters, according to you?

I think the one thing the 'left' which is really the center needs to stop doing is apologizing for everything, it's perfectly ok to acknowledge injustices without endlessly wearing sack cloth and ashes, that's Trump's secret sauce really, he gets away with lying, screwing up, being wrong just because he never acknowledges it, what the left could learn from that is just stop trying to out do each other looking and sounding guilt ridden on any subject like race or trans issues.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Their bosses today are mostly Democrats. So sticking it to ‘the boss’ means something different now.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...emocrats-trump

no, the middle managers might be but the ####ers that own the company, they are all hanging out at Mar a Lago trying to get Donny Boy to cancel medicare and increase the pension age to 75

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Their bosses today are mostly Democrats. So sticking it to ‘the boss’ means something different now.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...emocrats-trump

Excellent read.

“Within the contemporary elite, there is this idea that if you set out the facts, everyone will agree,” Lind says. “And if you agree on the facts, then there is only one correct side. But in my agonist view of politics, people don’t disagree on facts, but about how to fit them with their values.” The result is a standoff that has one side pitted against the other with no way to compromise.

“You can only have compromise if you acknowledge the legitimacy of the prior conflict. If you claim that conflict is based on the ignorance of one side, or their insanity, or ignorance, then there’s no point in compromise; they should either be converted or defeated.”

These are the problems that face some people participating in this thread. I detect anger and resentment rather than a desire to understand and analyze what caused this.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

no, the middle managers might be but the ####ers that own the company, they are all hanging out at Mar a Lago trying to get Donny Boy to cancel medicare and increase the pension age to 75

The thoughtlessness of this is remarkable.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by butterfly

The thoughtlessness of this is remarkable.

yeh, it's almost like I was imagining the endless stream of billionaires kissing Donny's ring while he boasted of the tax cuts he cut them by increasing the US debt by a trillion

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by butterfly

The thoughtlessness of this is remarkable.

You believe bosses(owners) are mostly voting democrat?

I thought cliff’s argument was pretty disingenuous. Even if by bosses he only meant their direct supervisors/managers I’d say it’s still probably unlikely that the majority are voting democrat.