newly single

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Modern values? ...like the crap you learned in school?

Don't be jealous because your dad wouldn't let you go!

[driveway]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I disagree. Masculinity and femininity are socially constructed? My god, where did you learn that crap?

Let me guess, you took some "womens studies" classes at university?

I look at the results of the movement, not the concept.

I'm sure feminism meant well, but it has done more damage than anything.

Look at the state of the family unit in Western nations. Dysfunction is the new normal.......yikes.

You are playing a character, aren't you?

You can't seriously claim that an increase in the rate of divorce is worse than half our population being denied the right to vote, own property, or speak in their own defence in court?

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Give me some examples...

Ideas like: men should work with their hands, are more violent, should withhold their emotions, should be the provider, are better in leadership roles, are inherently better at sports, are smarter, are more outgoing.

There is little to no biological basis for any of these ideas, yet they permeate our culture and generally for the worse.

On the other hand women are supposed to be submissive, quiet, gentle, nurturing and assume following roles.

These ideas also have no basis in our biology but stem from a pathological desire in men to control women in order to ensure our reproduction.

You, by clinging to outdated ideas, misinformation and your own dysfunctional gender identity, are slowing down the progress of all human kind.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

You are playing a character, aren't you?

You can't seriously claim that an increase in the rate of divorce is worse than half our population being denied the right to vote, own property, or speak in their own defence in court?



Ideas like: men should work with their hands, are more violent, should withhold their emotions, should be the provider, are better in leadership roles, are inherently better at sports, are smarter, are more outgoing.

There is little to no biological basis for any of these ideas, yet they permeate our culture and generally for the worse.

On the other hand women are supposed to be submissive, quiet, gentle, nurturing and assume following roles.

These ideas also have no basis in our biology but stem from a pathological desire in men to control women in order to ensure our reproduction.

You, by clinging to outdated ideas, misinformation and your own dysfunctional gender identity, are slowing down the progress of all human kind.

I like my woman strong enough to hold up my car when I change the tires

Outspoken enough to tell those jehovah witnesses to back off on Saturday morning

To be successful enough to support me in the manner that I deserve

To be a lioness in the sack and do all the work

Basically gentleman, I like to put my woman on a pedestal so I can look up her dress.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by driveway

You are playing a character, aren't you?

You can't seriously claim that an increase in the rate of divorce is worse than half our population being denied the right to vote, own property, or speak in their own defence in court?

Well first of all I was talking about masculinity and femininity being something we inherit at birth, rather than a cultural/social fabrication.

It seems to me that some of you are saying that aside from different outward physical appearance, men and women are exactly the same. I disagree with this.

I said feminism did some good things, like you pointed out with the voting, property rights etc., but it has had a negative impact on the family unit by flipping masculine/feminine roles upside down and creating confusion.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by driveway

You are playing a character, aren't you?


Ideas like: men should work with their hands, are more violent, should withhold their emotions, should be the provider, are better in leadership roles, are inherently better at sports, are smarter, are more outgoing.

There is little to no biological basis for any of these ideas, yet they permeate our culture and generally for the worse.

On the other hand women are supposed to be submissive, quiet, gentle, nurturing and assume following roles.

These ideas also have no basis in our biology but stem from a pathological desire in men to control women in order to ensure our reproduction.

You, by clinging to outdated ideas, misinformation and your own dysfunctional gender identity, are slowing down the progress of all human kind.

Biology most certainly does influence female vs. male behaviour.

I am not saying that society doesn't play a role, but genders have natural tendencies to drift towards certain behaviours.

Good examples are ape society. Ape society, is the human state without sociological nurturing. An ultra aggressive alpha male leading a harem of females. Society invents concepts like monogamy, women's rights, etc...

Another good example is the effect of testosterone on behaviour. Give someone massive amounts of testosterone and it will make them violent, aggressive, and selfish. Give someone estrogen and they will get more passive.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

Another good example is the effect of testosterone on behaviour. Give someone massive amounts of testosterone and it will make them violent, aggressive, and selfish. Give someone estrogen and they will get more passive.

Yes . . . instead they will nag more, seduce other males for food or money, and remember facts from arguments from 10 years ago.

[troutman]

I don't think families were any less dysfunctional in the 1950s. Everything was just hidden then - alcoholism, physical and mental abuse, adultery etc. People just did not get divorced (when maybe they should have), and there was not much help available in the community.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I said feminism did some good things, like you pointed out with the voting, property rights etc., but it has had a negative impact on the family unit by flipping masculine/feminine roles upside down and creating confusion.

And I absolutely disagree that the impact on the "family unit" has been negative. I also disagree that impacting the family unit in this way has been negative for society.

Happy people make better parents. People stuck in marriages that are no longer functional are not happy, ergo they don't make good parents and are not contributing to the advancement of society.

People who are capable of leaving non-functioning and non-empowering family structures because of the advancements Feminism has brought to our society are making our society better by doing so.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by driveway

Ideas like: men should work with their hands, are more violent, should withhold their emotions, should be the provider, are better in leadership roles, are inherently better at sports, are smarter, are more outgoing.

Well you have alot of modern cultural fluff in what you consider to be masculine, but I will give you a basic example of what I mean when I say that man and women are born with different strengths that define what masculine/feminine is:

Men are physically superior to women. Isn't this pretty obvious? This must serve a purpose, like maybe a man may have to protect his family from danger and use his strength to overcome the environment or attain food for his family.

Women are more nurturing and emotionally intellegent. This is because women give birth and take care of babies.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Give me some examples...

The types of shows marketed to little boys and girls are different. The types of magazines marketed to little boys and girls are different. The types of toys marketed to little boys and girls are different. The way they are treated in school can be different. This affects their perception of themselves and their ideas about what is normal for boys and normal for girls. They also base their ideas about how girls and guys relate by watching others at school, watching their parents, watching friends of their parents. They take examples of what it is to be female or male from societal examples, either in real life or on TV.

I believe this is what people mean by gender being socially constructed. Our ideas of what it mean to be female or male are greatly influenced by our cultural products and by how people act in our culture.

Now you flip over to some African tribe and you can find cultures where the women are in charge and the social roles are totally different. Is that because they have way different DNA? Nope. This is why sociologists/anthropologists have decided gender is socially constructed. They've found societies where the roles are totally different.

It would be a mistake to think that every culture views female/male, femininity/masculinity in the same way because they don't. Some people realize this when they travel. Some people realize this by reading about other cultures.

I'm not sure you're really open to these ideas based on your posting style. You seem to champion ignorance. But hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying about social construction, in the case of gender if you really think about it it does seem pretty obvious. Perhaps hard to see though if you've never learned about any cultures where male/female gender roles were not significantly different from our culture.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by blankall

Biology most certainly does influence female vs. male behaviour.

I am not saying that society doesn't play a role, but genders have natural tendencies to drift towards certain behaviours.

I would say that the jury is still out on that. While it's true that there are biological factors, there isn't a lot of evidence that they are primary factors in behaviour.

Good examples are ape society. Ape society, is the human state without sociological nurturing. An ultra aggressive alpha male leading a harem of females. Society invents concepts like monogamy, women's rights, etc...

Another good example is the effect of testosterone on behaviour. Give someone massive amounts of testosterone and it will make them violent, aggressive, and selfish. Give someone estrogen and they will get more passive.

Using Ape society is a flawed example. Apes demonstrate a wide range of social structures, even between very closely related species (Bonobos v Chimpanzees, for example). Also, ape societies have been shown to have their own forms of sociological nurturing. And finally, at this point in human evolution its practically impossible to disassociate social developments and biological ones, particularly when the subject in question is social.

I don't want to imply that there is no biological difference between men and women. Merely that any biological differences are secondary and that the vast, vast majority of what we consider to be "Masculine" or "Feminine" is not based in biology, but is purely social construction.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by troutman

I don't think families were any less dysfunctional in the 1950s. Everything was just hidden then - alcoholism, physical and mental abuse, adultery etc. People just did not get divorced (when maybe they should have), and there was not much help available in the community.

I think this is so true. There wasn't some magical formula to marriage "back then". I just think as Troutman said, people hid their problems, divorce, marriage counselling, or any other counselling for that matter had too much of a stigma attached to them.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by driveway

You are playing a character, aren't you?

You can't seriously claim that an increase in the rate of divorce is worse than half our population being denied the right to vote, own property, or speak in their own defence in court?



Ideas like: men should work with their hands, are more violent, should withhold their emotions, should be the provider, are better in leadership roles, are inherently better at sports, are smarter, are more outgoing.

There is little to no biological basis for any of these ideas, yet they permeate our culture and generally for the worse.

On the other hand women are supposed to be submissive, quiet, gentle, nurturing and assume following roles.

These ideas also have no basis in our biology but stem from a pathological desire in men to control women in order to ensure our reproduction.

You, by clinging to outdated ideas, misinformation and your own dysfunctional gender identity, are slowing down the progress of all human kind.

Have you ever seen the WNBA??

[Regorium]

What progress is left for women to make here in North America? Note: This is clearly only applicable to NORTH AMERICA (ie. Canada/USA, maybe the UK) and NOT the rest of the world. Feminism did a LOT of great things in the past that was rightfully deserved, but their time has long gone.

This is feminism today: http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/al...he-daddy.thtml

It is very clearly no longer about equality. Today, feminism is about earning more for working less. It's about gaining positions of power when it is undeserved. It's about forcing social change that is counter to biological tendencies (ie. wanting fat to be the new beautiful, or marketing things to people that don't want them). Today's version of feminism is useless, and should rightfully be shamed.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by driveway

And I absolutely disagree that the impact on the "family unit" has been negative. I also disagree that impacting the family unit in this way has been negative for society.

Happy people make better parents. People stuck in marriages that are no longer functional are not happy, ergo they don't make good parents and are not contributing to the advancement of society.

People who are capable of leaving non-functioning and non-empowering family structures because of the advancements Feminism has brought to our society are making our society better by doing so.

Our modern "culture", which is basically based on marketing material goods to people by distorting their values, has created myths and false expectations of what a family is or should be.

So do you think family life is better or more successful now than in prevous decades?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Men are physically superior to women. Isn't this pretty obvious? This must serve a purpose, like maybe a man may have to protect his family from danger and use his strength to overcome the environment or attain food for his family.

Women are more nurturing and emotionally intellegent. This is because women give birth and take care of babies.

The sexual dimorphism shown between male and female humans is actually extremely small when compared to other members of the Primate family and most evolutionary biology points to it being the result of sexual selection. That is, the trait is related to locating, attracting and fighting for mates as opposed to finding food or protecting offspring.

Also, there are a number of scientists who feel that sexual dimorphism is inversely proportional to the amount of child-rearing done by a species. To translate: you are closer in size to a human female than a gorilla is to a female gorilla because you invest more energy in child-rearing. This gives a pretty serious knock to your "women raise babies" notion.

So do you think family life is better or more successful now than in prevous decades?

VASTLY. In every possible way it's better. I can't think of a single way in which 'family life' is less successful than ever before.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

Have you ever seen the WNBA??

They can't dunk but they have solid fundamentals.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by valo403

Have you ever seen the WNBA??

I'd rather watch the Kentucky Derby. Wait, what?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The types of shows marketed to little boys and girls are different. The types of magazines marketed to little boys and girls are different. The types of toys marketed to little boys and girls are different. The way they are treated in school can be different. This affects their perception of themselves and their ideas about what is normal for boys and normal for girls. They also base their ideas about how girls and guys relate by watching others at school, watching their parents, watching friends of their parents. They take examples of what it is to be female or male from societal examples, either in real life or on TV.

I believe this is what people mean by gender being socially constructed. Our ideas of what it mean to be female or male are greatly influenced by our cultural products and by how people act in our culture.

Now you flip over to some African tribe and you can find cultures where the women are in charge and the social roles are totally different. Is that because they have way different DNA? Nope. This is why sociologists/anthropologists have decided gender is socially constructed. They've found societies where the roles are totally different.

It would be a mistake to think that every culture views female/male, femininity/masculinity in the same way because they don't. Some people realize this when they travel. Some people realize this by reading about other cultures.

I'm not sure you're really open to these ideas based on your posting style. You seem to champion ignorance. But hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying about social construction, in the case of gender if you really think about it it does seem pretty obvious. Perhaps hard to see though if you've never learned about any cultures where male/female gender roles were not significantly different from our culture.

You make some good points and I agree that culture has an impact on us.

But show me the African tribe where men give birth instead of women.

And to address your first paragraph on marketing; I think you may have it backwards. Marketing does not shape behavior, behavior shapes marketing, or else it will fail. The purpose if marketing is to make profit. You can market computers and fashion to dogs for a thousand years and they still won't be interested in those things.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by troutman

I don't think families were any less dysfunctional in the 1950s. Everything was just hidden then - alcoholism, physical and mental abuse, adultery etc. People just did not get divorced (when maybe they should have), and there was not much help available in the community.

I think you have to go back much further than that to find a more functional family unit.

It has probably never been perfect however.....