YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Sure I can get behind allowing or not allowing certain comments, but then where do we draw the line?

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Yeah it's pretty rare someone pulls out a slippery slope argument unless they're trying to justify their ####ty opinions.

Amazing I get to keep recycling posts.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Barbecue

this made me chuckle...

in a thread dominated by arguments denouncing sexism, you choose to use "broad"

you realize that "broad" is a derogatory term for women, right?
or are you just trolling?

Really are you sure?

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Sure I can get behind allowing or not allowing certain comments, but then where do we draw the line?

Yeah the pictures were supposed to be private, but they're public now. I wasn't the first and won't be the last guy to look at them.

Just because they exist in the public-sphere, does not mean you have any more of a right to look at them. They're still private, and not for you, so it's about respecting others and not doing it. But you've already seem them, so it's neither here nor there (and the looking isn't the topic so much).

It's the comments, the "well they're nothing special." It's demeaning against women in general. It's objectifying. They aren't yours to pass judgement on.

A good rule of thumb in general is that if it isn't something you would say to a woman's face, it's not likely anything you should saying at all.

Would you go up to Jennifer Lawrence and say "I saw you nude, you're nothing special." Probably not. And if by chance you did, I think everyone would agree that it's a dick thing to say. So how are you being any less awful saying it behind that person's back?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Amazing I get to keep recycling posts.

Well no... I'm just curious where we draw the line.

Are comments like "wow, she's gorgeous" allowed? I can see making comments about violence or rape being banned, but I don't think I've ever seen those. I can get behind banning offensive language, but what's offensive to some might not be offensive to others, so where do we propose the line be drawn? It's not a slippery slope argument, I'm just wondering what standard do we use to ban material in that thread. I'm not sure there's anything in CP's official policies that governs this.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well no... I'm just curious where we draw the line.

Are comments like "wow, she's gorgeous" allowed? I can see making comments about violence or rape being banned, but I don't think I've ever seen those. I can get behind banning offensive language, but what's offensive to some might not be offensive to others, so where do we propose the line be drawn? It's not a slippery slope argument, I'm just wondering what standard do we use to ban material in that thread. I'm not sure there's anything in CP's official policies that governs this.

That is literally a slippery slope argument.

I'd be totally on board however with a change to the official policy that states "no posting grotesque commentary about what, who, or how you jerk off (to)".

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Just because they exist in the public-sphere, does not mean you have any more of a right to look at them. They're still private, and not for you, so it's about respecting others and not doing it. But you've already seem them, so it's neither here nor there (and the looking isn't the topic so much).

It's the comments, the "well they're nothing special." It's demeaning against women in general. It's objectifying. They aren't yours to pass judgement on.

A good rule of thumb in general is that if it isn't something you would say to a woman's face, it's not likely anything you should saying at all.

Would you go up to Jennifer Lawrence and say "I saw you nude, you're nothing special." Probably not. And if by chance you did, I think everyone would agree that it's a dick thing to say. So how are you being any less awful saying it behind that person's back?

Well those pictures are nothing special to me because there's nothing beautiful about them. They're crudely done cell phone pictures, with poor lighting and no make-up. The point of that post in the other thread was that you've gotta be seriously messed up to get off on those pictures.

But I agree with you. This argument is for the other thread.

I think the point is, the pictures in the hot women thread are meant to be viewed and in a sense scrutinized. But if that's too much for CP, I can respect that and I'd be OK with limiting or banning comments.

[Barbecue]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Really are you sure?

I wouldnt say it to their face if we were all having a beer in my back yard I wouldn't say it here either.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well those pictures are nothing special to me because there's nothing beautiful about them. They're crudely done cell phone pictures, with poor lighting and no make-up. The point of that post in the other thread was that you've gotta be seriously messed up to get off on those pictures.

But I agree with you. This argument is for the other thread.

I think the point is, the pictures in the hot women thread are meant to be viewed and in a sense scrutinized. But if that's too much for CP, I can respect that and I'd be OK with limiting or banning comments.

The bold is EXACTLY the problem. I don't think I even need to make much of a comment, because those are pretty disgusting things to say and they speak for themselves.

As for your second point:
Why are they meant to be scrutinized. Who decided that, and which of those girls gave you permission to publicly scrutinize their bodies?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well no... I'm just curious where we draw the line.

Are comments like "wow, she's gorgeous" allowed? I can see making comments about violence or rape being banned, but I don't think I've ever seen those. I can get behind banning offensive language, but what's offensive to some might not be offensive to others, so where do we propose the line be drawn? It's not a slippery slope argument, I'm just wondering what standard do we use to ban material in that thread. I'm not sure there's anything in CP's official policies that governs this.

This is a major reason why I think moderating the comments is a dead end.
I can't imagine a discussion about what kind of comments exactly are okay and what are not that will go anywhere. What ever the policy, at the end of the day, there will always be a ton of ways to make comments that will/would make others uncomfortable, intentionally or unintentionally. It's such a loaded topic.

This kind of stuff is actually a major reason why I voted for banning the whole thread. Trying to dance the line will IMO get too complicated.

[Flash Walken]

No makeup, 3/10, would not bang.

^ The issue.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No makeup, 3/10, would not bang.

^ The issue.

also:

Originally Posted by Barbecue

I hope this thread isn't degenerating into a "lets share photos of our medicore looking wives" thread

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

The bold is EXACTLY the problem. I don't think I even need to make much of a comment, because those are pretty disgusting things to say and they speak for themselves.

As for your second point:
Why are they meant to be scrutinized. Who decided that, and which of those girls gave you permission to publicly scrutinize their bodies?

I actually don't think we're very far off on the first part of your comments. My point is those are personal, private pictures not meant for public consumption and you've gotta be pretty desperate to get off on those. That's all.

The second part is where we differ. The moment a girl signs up for getting her pictures taken and distributed, she knows her work will be put up for scrutiny. It's the nature of the modeling industry. It's no different than a singer being criticized for having a terrible voice.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I actually don't think we're very far off on the first part of your comments. My point is those are personal, private pictures not meant for public consumption and you've gotta be pretty desperate to get off on those. That's all.

The second part is where we differ. The moment a girl signs up for getting her pictures taken and distributed, she knows her work will be put up for scrutiny. It's the nature of the modeling industry. It's no different than a singer being criticized for having a terrible voice.

Actually, you've got to be desperate to even look at those photographs. Desperate or ignorant of how violating it is. Regardless of that, saying there is "nothing beautiful about them" and that their lack of make-up is even remotely relevant to anything is still disgusting, so yes, sorry, we ARE very far off.

And yes, we also fundamentally disagree on the second part. Just because scrutiny exists, doesn't make it right or even give you right to vocalize it. It's human nature to pass judgement, but it's also about being a good human being. It's not just about whether a woman is attractive to you or not, the problem is with your perceived right to list some physical issues that woman has. These aren't your thoughts in a bubble, this is a message board. How do you think your comments make the women who read them feel? If someone throws up a model that wears a size 10 and someone says "Too big" how the hell do you think that's going to make the women who read that comment and wear a bigger size feel? I have a "type", I think some women are attractive and I find others unattractive, but I don't arbitrarily address the physical issues of women I find unattractive as though they're an object which I have any right to pass judgement on.

Models do not take photographs for you to talk about what you think is wrong with their body. They too are human beings. They are not just a body, or a face, or boobs, or a butt. They are a fully functioning human being that should be spoken of like one would speak of any other fully functioning human being.

Just answer me this: If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, why in the world would you say it at all?

[StrykerSteve]

I like the idea of the thread in general, I'm almost 40 and appreciate the female form, in all of it's glory. Sharing examples of what I feel is beautiful and seeing what others appreciate is something I enjoy. One of the reasons I spend time here is because it represents my many interests.

That being said, the moment I posted pictures of my wife, whom I consider gorgeous, with or without makeup, and got ridiculed for it, was the moment I knew I could live without the thread.

People's tastes are always going to differ, but the respect piece should be universal.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Actually, you've got to be desperate to even look at those photographs. Desperate or ignorant of how violating it is. Regardless of that, saying there is "nothing beautiful about them" and that their lack of make-up is even remotely relevant to anything is still disgusting, so yes, sorry, we ARE very far off.

And yes, we also fundamentally disagree on the second part. Just because scrutiny exists, doesn't make it right or even give you right to vocalize it. It's human nature to pass judgement, but it's also about being a good human being. It's not just about whether a woman is attractive to you or not, the problem is with your perceived right to list some physical issues that woman has. These aren't your thoughts in a bubble, this is a message board. How do you think your comments make the women who read them feel? If someone throws up a model that wears a size 10 and someone says "Too big" how the hell do you think that's going to make the women who read that comment and wear a bigger size feel? I have a "type", I think some women are attractive and I find others unattractive, but I don't arbitrarily address the physical issues of women I find unattractive as though they're an object which I have any right to pass judgement on.

Models do not take photographs for you to talk about what you think is wrong with their body. They too are human beings. They are not just a body, or a face, or boobs, or a butt. They are a fully functioning human being that should be spoken of like one would speak of any other fully functioning human being.

Just answer me this: If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, why in the world would you say it at all?

I'm not sure why you're hung up on the lack of make-up part. Like it or not that's part of the production process used to produce a quality, attractive photograph. Without the production involved in producing such a picture, these celebrities don't look like the goddesses that many people idolize. And yes the make-up is part of their image.

No I wouldn't say that to any of their faces. In the same way none of us would tell Shane O'Brian that he's a crappy hockey player or (pick your least favorite singer) is a terrible singer or your coworker is a terrible engineer/accountant/project manager/whatever. That's how society works.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No I wouldn't say that to any of their faces. In the same way none of us would tell Shane O'Brian that he's a crappy hockey player or (pic your least favorite singer) is a terrible singer or your coworker is a terrible engineer/accountant/project manager/whatever. That's how society works.

This is also part of society. These are not your 'bros' talking about that 'phat bitch' walking down the street with the 'great booty'. This is a public forum.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No makeup, 3/10, would not bang.

^ The issue.

Don't forget that context also matters.

For example.

"Man I miss Regulator75. The quality of this thread keeps dropping without him."

Put that under pretty much any string of pictures, and it seems like a pretty obvious snub, accidentally or not.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by FireFly

This is also part of society. These are not your 'bros' talking about that 'phat bitch' walking down the street with the 'great booty'. This is a public forum.

Well this is a community and anyone viewing the hot women thread is there for similar reasons as I. Therefore it seems OK to treat it as being with "your bros" in that context... Within reason.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I'm not sure why you're hung up on the lack of make-up part. Like it or not that's part of the production process used to produce a quality, attractive photograph. Without the production involved in producing such a picture, these celebrities don't look like the goddesses that many people idolize. And yes the make-up is part of their image.

No I wouldn't say that to any of their faces. In the same way none of us would tell Shane O'Brian that he's a crappy hockey player or (pick your least favorite singer) is a terrible singer or your coworker is a terrible engineer/accountant/project manager/whatever. That's how society works.

I'm not just hung up on that. The point is that you have no right to pass judgement on those people. You can't argue that it's ok to judge models BECAUSE they take pictures for the public, but judge the private photographs of women that you were never intended to see. You know what female celebrities without make-up or without production quality look like? Women. Regular women. So by passing judgement on them as "Not beautiful" because they don't have make-up or aren't photoshopped, you are insulting pretty much every woman on the planet. Great work.

On your second point:
As pointed out, there's the rub. This IS society. This IS public. You are not behind closed doors. You are not in the boy's club or with your buddies. You are in a public space where WOMEN read your comments. You wouldn't make fun of a picture of a handicapped person in front of another handicapped person (just a random example), so why in the WORLD would you make disparaging comments about a woman in front of other women? Doesn't that go against how society functions?

This isn't talking about the talent or work-quality of someone. This is talking about the way someone is born, or in general, the physical attributes of someone. By turning that into a product for which you are to judge (like a hockey game, or an album, or whatever) you are objectifying these women.

If you want to look at a picture and point out the problems with THE PICTURE, then go crazy. Hell, if you want to take that picture and point out the problems with the way the model is posing, or the outfit, go crazy, because that's part of "the job" just like commenting on the Flames jerseys or Shane O'Brien's puck skills. But to take a picture and point out the body issues of the woman? Sorry, THAT isn't how society works.

[terminator]