[PGT] Flames 4 - Dallas 6. You get a Turnover and You get a Turnover!

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by JJFlash

I would like to know what has happened to the shut down D we had last year. When we had a lead in the third last year we could close out games with inferior goaltending and D. I am starting to think that Hamilton is overrated. I have already shared my thoughts on Brodie's incomplete game. I would use him to bring in secondary scoring like Simmonds.

Philly is a tire fire and will have to move some of its core to advance. They appear to have been fleeced on the Schenn trade so may be reluctant. They have a young D core and a fresh start might be good. This allows us to bring in Andersson who has the composure we need. We don't need a D that is the best on paper.

they're like 33-1-1 or something when leading after 2 periods since the start of last season...

[Travis Munroe]

You won't ever hear me say Tre is a bad GM.... I believe he has proven to be one of the better GMs based on the team he has put together. His job is to bring in the best possible talent and character. The guys he brings in are no BS great community guys and there is no questioning the talent.

Tre filled all the gaps for this team so GG shouldn't have any excuse. Some credit is due for having Johny Mony and Ferland playing lights out but to have the record we do with those guys playing at career year paces, the D we have and performances from Smith is concerning.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by stone hands

they're like 33-1-1 or something when leading after 2 periods since the start of last season...

Is that correct? So we must be trailing more often than not after 2 periods.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

The 3M line has arguably been one of the top shut down lines in the league over the past 14 months, so I can't see why you'd blend that up.

To continue on this:

This season Tkachuk, Backlund and Frolik combined are on pace for 37 even strength goals. If they had one goal more of any kind, their total goal projection would come to 52 goals over the season.

Last season they combined for 37 even strength, and 52 goals in total.

When you consider they're getting slightly less PP time (Frolik to be exact has had his PP time cut about 30 seconds per game) and more PK time (about 40 seconds more for both Backlund and Frolik), it essentially explains all the differences. They're really ridiculously consistent.

For added detail; I've counted their combined goal projection at least three times this season now, and they've never been further than 1 goal away from their last years pace.

If you ever wanted to run experiments on performance of hockey lines under different conditions, you could probably use 3M as a standard measurement unit.

[jlh2640]

Boy was i mad going to bed last night. 2 games against Dallas now that we blew late

[Flash Walken]

Guys, four years ago when Giordano got hurt Brodie stepped up and played great. I think we should cut him some slack because 1500 days ago he played like a top pairing defender.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Guys, four years ago when Giordano got hurt Brodie stepped up and played great. I think we should cut him some slack because 1500 days ago he played like a top pairing defender.

Yeah, Brodie has only been good in his career at one point in time.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

The defensive woes look to be systematic to me. It isn’t a coincidence that all defense,en make the same dumb plays all the time. Just like the stupid predictable drop pass on the PP, the defensemen looked schooled to use the against-the-grain puck movement deep in their own zone, for some unknown reason. It is predictable and it is consistent. The Flames defensemen go out of their way to work against the flow, and it results in turnovers in the defensive zone. This is systematic. This team has way too much talent and players with pure hockey sense to do this crap this consistently without it being part of the system.

Agree 100%.

It isn't just one thing of course, but a primary reason the D gets into trouble on a regular basis is that they continually turn around and take the puck backwards. If there isn't a clear pass to a forward, they circle back and pass it back and forth with the other D, or pull it all the way back behind the net.

Sometimes that is a good play. Possession is important, and you can't survive by simply dumping it off the glass and out every time.

However, you can't circle back every time either. It puts far too much pressure on the D, and provides too much opportunity for an aggressive forecheck to wear out the D and cause turnovers. Sometimes, glass and out is the best play.

The other thing that is frustrating the crap out of me this year is that the D aren't joining the offense. They hold it and hold it in their own zone until the forwards have stopped at centre, and then they try to fire long passes up to them.

I loved the system that Gulutzan described when they hired him (a 5-man unit that would focus on controlling both bluelines). But that is not what we are seeing on the ice. The system we are seeing, and in particular, the way the D are playing, is terrible. It doesn't utilize the talent we have, and it doesn't work.

This team has more talent than they are displaying. That's on the coaching staff IMO. Will they win some games? Of course. Will they win as many as they should? So far the answer to that is no.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Guys, four years ago when Giordano got hurt Brodie stepped up and played great. I think we should cut him some slack because 1500 days ago he played like a top pairing defender.

Here are a few facts:

1) TJ Brodie is on pace for 52 points
2) Of the 20 defensemen ahead of him in the scoring race, the only ones who are +3 or better are:
Alex Pietrangelo *
Will Butcher - a highly shelterd rookie
Drew Doughty
Mike Green
Mikael Sergachev

3) Some defensemen, who like Brodie have notable minuses on their stat line include:
Oliver Ekman Larsson - -17
Kris Letang - -16
Erik Karlsson - -8
Shea Weber - -7
Duncan Keith - -6

4) Of the 25 defensemen with 400 5-on-5 minutes logged, here are the defenseman with a more difficult quality of competition than TJ Brodie this season:
Drew Doughty
Marco Scandella
Alex Pietrangelo *
Erik Karlsson

5) Of the same 25 defensemen, here are the defensemen with a worse 5-on-5 goal differential:
Dmitri Orlov
Ryan Suter
Marco Scandella
Jared SPurgeon
Jason Demers
Brooks Orpik
John Carlson
Adam Larsson
Alex Goligoski
Oliver Ekman-Larsson
Kris Letang


6) Of the 37 defensemen to log 500+ minutes so far this season, here are the defensemen with better personal penalty differentials:
Seth Jones
Dmitri Orlov
Zach Werenski
Alex Piterangelo *
Erik Johnson
Morgan Rielly
Oliver Ekman-Larsson
Jeff Petry
Marco Scandella

7) Out of the five Flames defensemen to see regular ice time (10+ minutes TOI) on the PK this year, here are the Goals Against Per 60 rates on the penalty kill:

Hamilton - 5.49
Giordano - 4.42
Brodie - 2.42
Hamonic - 2.91
Stone - 3.37

8) Out of the 14 defensemen to have logged 70+ minutes of 5-on-4 time this season, here are the defensemen to have better on-ice goals-for rates:
John Carlson
Kris Letang
Nick Leddy
Kevin Shattenkirk
Victor Hedman
PK Subban

9) Out of the same 14 defensemen, here are the defensemen to have better on-ice expected-goals-for rates:
Drew Doughty

10) Here are the defensemen who have logged more average ice time this season in the NHL than TJ Brodie:
Ryan Suter
Rasmus Ristolainen
Drew Doughty
John Carlson
Erik Johnson
Shea Weber
Alex Pietrangelo (***who, if you haven't noticed by now, is pretty much looking like the best option for the Norris Trophy)
Jared Spurgeon
Kris Letang
Victor Hedman
Brent Burns
Erik Karlsson
Oliver Ekman-Larsson
Roman Josi
Duncan Keith
Ivan Provorov
Mattias Ekholm


But yeah, because you notice when TJ Brodie screws up, and totally don't have an emotional influence on your perception, it was 1500 days ago when TJ Brodie was a top pairing defensemen. I'm not pretending Brodie is having a great season. But based on ice time, all situations usage, success in both sides of special teams, quality of competition at 5-on-5, individual penalty differential, and points pace... doubting that he is a top 62 defenseman in the NHL when he's pretty clearly top 30 or, in my opinion top 10 when playing a bit better, is simply throwing a tantrum because he isn't perfect.

[jg13]

I appreciate the effort put into this post ^

[Enoch Root]

I agree with GrateedEV that you have to look a little deeper at Brodie's TOI and quality of competition.

But I think those same points beg the question as to whether Brodie is being utilized properly. IMO, he would be more effective with a little less ice time , and somewhat more sheltered minutes.

If I were the coach, I would have Giordano and Hamilton doing more of the heavy lifting. And I would be lighting a fire under Hamilton's ass or threatening to replace him with Hamonic in that role.

I would put Stone back with Brodie, and I would give them easier matchups, and softer zone starts.

I think part of Brodie's problem this year is that he is being asked to do too much. Gulutzan is running him as his #1, and while I love the guy, it's too much workload for him.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think part of Brodie's problem this year is that he is being asked to do too much. Gulutzan is running him as his #1, and while I love the guy, it's too much workload for him.

It's the other way around. He's being asked to do too little. He's not being asked to skate the puck or stretch the ice with is passing or join the cycle.

He's on the ice a lot, but the only time he's asked to do anything is when he's asked to hit his centers with 5-10 foot passes in the defensive zone. It's misutlization not because of ice time but because of skillset. I have no doubt this is the kind of guy who will be logging epic 50+ minute playoff games for us at some point and doing it perfectly, but we need to use him to his strengths rather than use him to the system.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's the other way around. He's being asked to do too little. He's not being asked to skate the puck or stretch the ice with is passing or join the cycle.

He's on the ice a lot, but the only time he's asked to do anything is when he's asked to hit his centers with 5-10 foot passes in the defensive zone. It's misutlization not because of ice time but because of skillset. I have no doubt this is the kind of guy who will be logging epic 50+ minute playoff games for us at some point and doing it perfectly, but we need to use him to his strengths rather than use him to the system.

What you are saying is that he isn't being utilized properly. And I agree.

But part of that is that he is logging too much ice time, and being given too much defensive responsibility. You can't be joining the rush all the time if you are playing 25 minutes against top competition.

He needs to be utilized as a #3, against softer competition and for fewer minutes, and then he can be turned loose.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It's the other way around. He's being asked to do too little. He's not being asked to skate the puck or stretch the ice with is passing or join the cycle.

He's on the ice a lot, but the only time he's asked to do anything is when he's asked to hit his centers with 5-10 foot passes in the defensive zone. It's misutlization not because of ice time but because of skillset. I have no doubt this is the kind of guy who will be logging epic 50+ minute playoff games for us at some point and doing it perfectly, but we need to use him to his strengths rather than use him to the system.

Respectfully, what's wrong with that? Exiting the zone with the centre in the middle of the ice is a great way to play --> attack the middle and have the opponent close on you opens up passing lanes on the wings to enter the zone.

Jankowski has done this a few times and IMO it's a thing of beauty to watch.

Now on the other hand I would like to see the D involved in the offensive cycle game a little more but I do see them carrying the puck out of the zone lately too. Usually the puck goes up the boards to our winger, instead of head manning up to other forward right into the teeth of the opponent (with no gap) I've seen the winger hold it, and hit the far side d coming up the ice. That's a great exit too (St. Louis does this with Pietrangelo et al).

As Enoch said you can't have your D carry it every time. But in general I agree with what you're saying, involve the D in the offensive attack more.

[locsofblu]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Tre has done his job by assembling the best roster he can and managing the cap. It's on the players ultimately to perform to their best potential. Tre has zero control on that. After most signings and trades, the entire hockey community (outside of CP) just praises Tre.

Also, building a team will never be perfect. the fact that our GMs short comings are 4th liners and backup goalies is a damn good thing. I would much rather have those problems rather than the issues up north.

Ya it's kind of a ####ty situation for him as he has done everything to make this team a stronger hockey club but I think he grossly over estimated at some of the pieces he aquired.
I'm not a huge GG fan but it's hard to fathom that our defensive system would cause these guys to play so timid and cause so many turn overs.
I guess we'll have to wait and see how the rest of the season plays out but man the lack of secondary scoring 1/4 of the way through is scary.

[Ashasx]

wrong thread