Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Although I am sure Israeli retaliation can certainly lead to support of Hamas, there are similar groups that exist throughout the middle east, unrelated to Israel. Hamas just happens to be another. Hamas has peace with no group, let alone Israel and Palestinians.

Saudis and Iran (and others) fund Hamas. I think their goal is to promote violence and keep things bad in order to make Israel look bad, keep the cycle going, so that wealthy and prosperous and free Palestinians will not exist. Think of it, if Palestinians really did prosper with Israel, what would that mean to the rest of monarchs/supreme rulers/regimes? Israel certainly has problems, but it is truly a free country which sticks out against some of it's neighbors. Otherwise, how does any of this make sense? Just today Israel offered to pull back the military in exchange for stopping the rockets, instead they shoot more. If Abbas did take steps for peace I don't think he would survive.

I really hope the Arab Spring leads to more people with a similar desire to have increased freedoms and a better understanding/sensitivity of the rest of the world.

I keep telling myself that I won't answer your garbage, but you're really a deluded individual.

In my free and democratic Palestine/Israel, people like you would be the first to get arrested and sent to Antarctica.

You're really clueless.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You have yet to show where any of this occurred. You are making things up.



My claims of antisemitism were aimed at posters who simply smeared and used hateful rhetoric, often in assorted threads. Yet you keep jumping into this insulting me, and yet to post why.



I assume at this point you are simply trolling the thread.

Sorry, I read back through this thread and I really had to point this out once you accused someone else of insulting and trolling others:

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

... you are also a fool.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If that is what you consider proof of racism than I feel sorry for you. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You are a fool.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Nice slur against me ... Pathetic. I am also doing more for the Palestinians than you ever will ... you seem to bounce all over the place with your rhetoric, truly hateful stuff.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If they have no interest in rational debate and only slurs, it is clear what is going on

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am sorry your perspective allows you to see that as Israel's fault.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Quit trying to lie.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I doubt you will post anything intelligent as a response.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Simple hate speech, do you have anything original?

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

So based on real news, not your racist news source...A police matter? What a joke.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

True, if you were to focus on antiSemitic nonesense. If you were to actually avoid the revisionist history ... Pretty typical of some posters here and pathetic as usual.

You've been nothing but rude, insulting, condescending, dismissive, and accusatory this whole thread. Accusing people of lying when perhaps they've been misinformed, lobbing personal insults at anyone who thinks your views are too far to one side, calling people pathetic, unintelligent, hateful.

I don't know you. I don't know your place here, but you could certainly stand to be kind and respectful instead of how you go about things. I think that's pretty universal. Not just on a message board. Whether dealing with someone who has views you hate, or someone like myself who just said your views were too far to one side, you can still be respectful of others.

Really amazing how someone can be so rude.

[SebC]

Protection of minority rights isn't inherent to democracy, it's inherent to liberalism. A democracy is only liberal if the voters are liberal. (If protection of minority rights needs to be imposed by an outside or minority force, then it's not really much of a democracy any more.)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Look at how blacks, gays and women are treated now in Canada. Pretty well.

And we're not talking about a very large difference in population either. There's about 5.2 Million Jews right now and about 5 Million Palestinians/Arab Israelis in Israel, West Bank and Gaza. If anything, the Jews would be the majority, but only by a tiny amount. Even world wide, there are 14 to 18 Million Jews and about 11 Million Palestinians. The populations are surprisingly similar, with a slight advantage to Jews. When you have two very similar population sizes, no one side really can oppress the other in a democratic society. Look at Belgium for example (4.1 Million French speaking Walloons and 6.5 Million Dutch speaking Flemish) or Switzerland (4.6 million Germans, 1.5 million French and 0.5 million Italians).

Also, I never said anything about hating on Jews. Like I said before, most are good people that just want peace. The state of Israel, however, is a different story.

C'mon...you don't actually believe that.

Look at the way the two populations vote now. The Israelis vote across a wide spectrum of parties. The Palestinians vote in block for Hamas.

Sorry, a one state solution with two so different people has never worked once in all of history. Comparing Belgium to the Middle East conflict? It's far more than a dialect of French/Flemish separated the two groups. They have totally different ways of life.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well the two state solution used to be a non-starter for both Palestinians and Israelis a couple of decades ago, but now seems to be the go to answer to the issue since Oslo (although we're nowhere closer to a solution today).

Public opinion can change if people see a tangible improvement in their lives from the change. I think the majority on both sides will tell you "I just want to live in peace with them."

The majority of Americans seem to favour the One State Solution if the Two State Solution fails, viewing Israel's democracy as more important than their Jewishness

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.577597

Haaretz is interesting reading, but it's also totally biased and not well circulated. It has a circulation of about 70,000 and most of those are English speaking Americans.

That poll you spoke of gave 3 options: one state solution, apartheid, or continued conflict....yeah I'm sure a lot of people are going to vote for the last two. The poll also didn't say "if the Two State Solution fails", it said "if the Two State Solution was not an option".

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

C'mon...you don't actually believe that.

Look at the way the two populations vote now. The Israelis vote across a wide spectrum of parties. The Palestinians vote in block for Hamas.

Sorry, a one state solution with two so different people has never worked once in all of history. Comparing Belgium to the Middle East conflict? It's far more than a dialect of French/Flemish separated the two groups. They have totally different ways of life.

And yet it seems to work in Israel with the over 1 million Arabs now. It also works (sort of) in Lebanon.

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I think if you give someone some freedom, education and a reason to live, they'll pretty quickly ditch violence as a way of life.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

And yet it seems to work in Israel with the over 1 million Arabs now. It also works (sort of) in Lebanon.

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I think if you give someone some freedom, education and a reason to live, they'll pretty quickly ditch violence as a way of life.

Lol it does not work in Lebanon. The massive amount of deaths aside, the vast majority of Christians left Lebanon.

It works in Israel now, because it's not happening. There is no equal voting blocks. The Jews are established as in control with a 20% or so Arab minority.

Honestly, if Lebanon is your great success story, I think you just need to drop this line of thought immediately.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by blankall

Lol it does not work in Lebanon. The massive amount of deaths aside, the vast majority of Christians left Lebanon.

It works in Israel now, because it's not happening. There is no equal voting blocks. The Jews are established as in control with a 20% or so Arab minority.

Honestly, if Lebanon is your great success story, I think you just need to drop this line of thought immediately.

That's a pretty condescending post with a lot of factual issues.

Many Maronites left, but nowhere close to a 'vast majority'.

And the history of strife between the Lebanese people is almost entirely a product of outside influences. It was quite a prosperous and peaceful country by Arab standards before the onset of the civil war.

Not going to derail further.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Lol it does not work in Lebanon. The massive amount of deaths aside, the vast majority of Christians left Lebanon.

It works in Israel now, because it's not happening. There is no equal voting blocks. The Jews are established as in control with a 20% or so Arab minority.

Honestly, if Lebanon is your great success story, I think you just need to drop this line of thought immediately.

Well that's why I said sort of.

Since their civil war (which is when most of the Christians left) violence between religions and sects has been fairly minimal.

Honestly, Lebanon's biggest problem is their weak military and police. That's not something Israel has a problem with though. Sure, Lebanon can't be considered a success story, but I think this bi-national state won't be plagued by the same problems Lebanon has.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

In my free and democratic Palestine/Israel, people like you would be the first to get arrested and sent to Antarctica.

Irony alert.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

That's a pretty condescending post with a lot of factual issues.

Many Maronites left, but nowhere close to a 'vast majority'.

And the history of strife between the Lebanese people is almost entirely a product of outside influences. It was quite a properous and peaceful country by Arab standards before the onset of the civil war.

Not going to derail further.

There are 18 million Lebanese people in the world, of which about 80% are Christian. The population of Lebanon is about 5 million, of which about 40% are Christians. Do the math.

And who's to say a single Israeli state would not be subject to similar outside forces. The Syrians have their eyes on Israel the same way they have their eyes on Lebanon. Lebanon before the civil war had a clear Christian majority. As soon as that became contested things fell apart. I'm not saying muslims were to blame. I'm saying at no point in history have two totally culturally different peoples existed as one state. There's always a clear majority or there is conflict.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are 18 million Lebanese people in the world, of which about 80% are Christian. The population of Lebanon is about 5 million, of which about 40% are Christians. Do the math.

The major Christian emigration was at the start of the 20th century. Perhaps you should do the math on how long it takes a country of 4.5M to grow to be 18M. Or do you think there used to be 10M+ people in that tiny country?

[Red Slinger]

Re: the one state solution.

There are too many outside forces that would diligently work to undermine a one state solution. It requires that all of the countries in the region believe and recognize that Israel has the right to exist AND then back up their beliefs and words with enforcement against those groups whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel.

Unfortunately, the only solution I can see at this time is a two state solution. And that would require high Israeli security. So, it's really not that far off from what we see right now.

Someone mentioned it earlier but if the Palestinians laid down their weapons most of the conflict would end. If Israel laid down all it's it would be destroyed. The current major force behind the conflict today is that victory for Israel means peace and victory for most of the Arab nations means the destruction of Israel.

[AltaGuy]

You honestly believe that Israelis would partition Jerusalem, dismantle settlements, and go back somewhere close to '67 borders if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

There are 18 million Lebanese people in the world, of which about 80% are Christian. The population of Lebanon is about 5 million, of which about 40% are Christians. Do the math.

And who's to say a single Israeli state would not be subject to similar outside forces. The Syrians have their eyes on Israel the same way they have their eyes on Lebanon. Lebanon before the civil war had a clear Christian majority. As soon as that became contested things fell apart. I'm not saying muslims were to blame. I'm saying at no point in history have two totally culturally different peoples existed as one state. There's always a clear majority or there is conflict.

Maybe they do, but when was the last time Israel and Syria went to war with each other? The 70s? I think if a just peace agreement in which the Palestinians were happy with the final outcome ever came to fruition, Syria would probably leave everyone alone (except maybe Lebanon). And even if Syria were to try to do anything to this new state, it's not like Israel's military superiority would suddenly disappear because because now it includes the Palestinians.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Re: the one state solution.

There are too many outside forces that would diligently work to undermine a one state solution. It requires that all of the countries in the region believe and recognize that Israel has the right to exist AND then back up their beliefs and words with enforcement against those groups whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel.

Unfortunately, the only solution I can see at this time is a two state solution. And that would require high Israeli security. So, it's really not that far off from what we see right now.

Someone mentioned it earlier but if the Palestinians laid down their weapons most of the conflict would end. If Israel laid down all it's it would be destroyed. The current major force behind the conflict today is that victory for Israel means peace and victory for most of the Arab nations means the destruction of Israel.

I've heard that a lot, but I think that's a bit of a simplistic view of how things would go down. Maybe the conflict would end, but it would probably not end well for the Palestinians.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

The major Christian emigration was at the start of the 20th century. Perhaps you should do the math on how long it takes a country of 4.5M to grow to be 18M. Or do you think there used to be 10M+ people in that tiny country?

That maybe so, but the rate of Christian emigration increased substantially during times of conflict. The Christians there are sharing the same fate of all the Christians in the middle east. Prior to the 1900s Christians made up huge swaths of territory in the middle east. You get the Armenian genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, the Lebanese civil war, etc... and all of a sudden you have a few dwindling pockets left.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Maybe they do, but when was the last time Israel and Syria went to war with each other? The 70s? I think if a just peace agreement in which the Palestinians were happy with the final outcome ever came to fruition, Syria would probably leave everyone alone (except maybe Lebanon). And even if Syria were to try to do anything to this new state, it's not like Israel's military superiority would suddenly disappear because because now it includes the Palestinians.

Syria is in a cold war with Israel. That's how they fight now (well before their country collapsed). But their play in Lebanon wasn't to invade. It was to financially support Hezbollah until Hezbollah had de facto control. They'd do the same thing with groups like Hamas in Israel. Even the Syrian collapse is largely being perpetuated by the Saudis fighting their own cold war and funding Sunni groups. If you think the war in a one state Israel would be fought openly, you're out to lunch. Outside forces would fund the extremist Sunni groups as they grew in population. Meanwhile the security situation for the Jewish population would degrade. It's the same model used across all of the Middle East and North Africa. It's the reason Christian and Jewish minorities largely don't exist in those countries.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

You honestly believe that Israelis would partition Jerusalem, dismantle settlements, and go back somewhere close to '67 borders if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?

Why does Israel have to go back to 1967 borders. That wasn't a border. That was a ceasefire line from an attempted invasion by surrounding Arab states. Between 1949 and 1967 Jordan removed all Jews from their portion of the invaded land. They demolished the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, one of the oldest communities in the world.

The Israelis have the right to choose a defensible border.

What makes more sense is for Israel to give Arabs within their territory the choice to join a Palestinian state and have a land swap. The problem is that most Israeli Arabs would choose to remain Israeli (despite the "genocidal racism" they experience daily).

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by blankall

Why does Israel have to go back to 1967 borders. That wasn't a border. That was a ceasefire line from an attempted invasion by surrounding Arab states. Between 1949 and 1967 Jordan removed all Jews from their portion of the invaded land. They demolished the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, one of the oldest communities in the world.

The Israelis have the right to choose a defensible border.

What makes more sense is for Israel to give Arabs within their territory the choice to join a Palestinian state and have a land swap. The problem is that most Israeli Arabs would choose to remain Israeli (despite the "genocidal racism" they experience daily).

Ah yes, here's some Negev desert. Trade you for Jerusalem.

In my opinion, as stated above, the Israelis have already chosen their "defensible borders". And that's all of it. So now what?

[Tinordi]

All shades of grey, Israeli terrorists thugging innocent Palestinians and Israeli peace sympathists:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world...as_waited.html

But it’s also been clear for some time that the Israeli government has been too hesitant in cracking down on so-called price-tag attacks perpetrated by settler extremist groups in retaliation for either Palestinian violence or Israeli government concessions. The current wave of price-tag violence grew out of resentment by settlers following Israel’s 2005 withdrawal from Gaza and has continued to pick up steam. The Washington Post reported last summer:

Now, the attacks are growing and so are the targets, which include not only Muslims in the West Bank and Israel, but left-leaning activists, as well as Christian schools, churches and monasteries, which vandals have tagged with graffiti.
According to civil rights groups, price-tag attacks have grown from a handful in 2008 to 23 so far this year. One group counts more than 20 incidents at mosques and churches since 2010. There were three price-tag incidents in June in neighborhoods and towns around Jerusalem.

The attacks have at times been more dangerous, including the firebombing of a Palestinian taxi and the attempted lynching of several Palestinian teens by a group of Israeli teenagers, which came on the same day in 2012. An attack on an Israeli army base by West Bank settlers in 2011 was described by Defense Minister Ehud Barak as “homegrown terror.” The U.S. State Department began listing price-tag attacks as acts of terrorism in 2012.