Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I certainly did and stand by my accusations. Ignoring or supporting terrorism while holding Israel to a different standard than other groups and criticizing them for that is simply racism.

That is not racism. Judging Israelis based on their race would be racism. Most people here have been judging the actions of the Israeli government and SOME Israeli citizens.

Is Israel held to a different standard than the Palenstinians? Yes and they should be. Israel is a liberal democracy that should be held to a higher standard than terrorists like Hamas, or brutal dictators like Assad, or corrupt kingdoms like the Saudi's, or religious extremists like the Ayotalah. Israel is a superior socio/political environment than it's neighbours but that doesn't mean it's perfect and immune from criticism. Throwing out accusations of antisemitism at the first sign of criticism towards Israel is counter-productive to having a reasonable conversation.

This thread is a near-perfect microcosm of the actual conflict. There are Palestinian supporters that have a hatred (rational and otherwise) for the state of Israel and can see no good in Israel. There are those that defend Israel no matter what and make excuses for it even when Israel is clearly provoking violence. There are those that can see both sides of the issue and make their arguments and observations impassionately but with compassion and empathy for the suffering on both sides. And finally, there are those who have no idea what they're talking about and should probably stay out of the debate.

The Israel/Palestinian conflict will never be solved (nor will the ongoing debate here) until:

-The Israeli supporters look at the atrocities that Israel HAS committed and hold them to account. And when others do so not label them as anti-semites.
-the Palestinian supporters look at the atrocities that Palestinians, Hamas and virtually every Arab nation in the region (and elsewhere) have committed or attempted to commit against Israel (and continue to do so).

As it stands, each side is so firmly entrenched in their position (both in the region and on this board) that any hope for real peace is unlikely any time soon. The irony is that most Israelis and Palestinians in the region legitimately want peace. When I lived in the area there was very little day to day hostility towards each other. People just went on with their lives. As a matter of fact, my Israeli friend had a best friend that was Palestinian. However, there are powerful factions on both sides that actively destabilize the relationship and the region for their own gain and these factions have successfully infiltrated the psyche and soul of this conversation. It's hard not to get emotional in these kinds of conversation but it's necessary for progress.

[_Q_]

Want to see Nage Waza get all extremist and racist?

I honestly think the best solution to the issue is to declare the idea of a two state solution dead and work towards integrating both sides into a binational state like Belgium. Both sides will be treated equally in the eyes of the law. Both sides can have their own leadership etc. but with a joint parliament that guarantees equality and unity.

As it stands right now, with so many Jews living inside the 1967 borders and so many Arabs living in Israel, plus all the issues with water rights, employment, religious sites and so on, it just can't be sustainable to try to split these two groups up.

[Azure]

Well you're certainly not doing yourself any favors by intentionally baiting Nage Waza all throughout this discussion regardless of any kind of solution you propose.

Perhaps you should start by admitting that Israel has contributed a lot of good in the region and throughout the world and work from there.

Both sides are entrenched in their view on the conflict, but that is what you get after 50 years of conflict. Israel has been defending their own borders since their country was created. It is pretty much a way of life from them now.

Shocking that they would act like they are whenever someone openly calls for destruction of their country.

IMO, a two state solution only works if Hamas doesn't control areas like Gaza. Which they do because the people there either support or tolerate them. When one side of the equation exists for no other reason than to destroy the other side there won't ever be peace. And for all the crap Israel has pulled over the past 50 years, they certainly aren't calling for open extermination of the Palestinian people.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Want to see Nage Waza get all extremist and racist?

I honestly think the best solution to the issue is to declare the idea of a two state solution dead and work towards integrating both sides into a binational state like Belgium. Both sides will be treated equally in the eyes of the law. Both sides can have their own leadership etc. but with a joint parliament that guarantees equality and unity.

As it stands right now, with so many Jews living inside the 1967 borders and so many Arabs living in Israel, plus all the issues with water rights, employment, religious sites and so on, it just can't be sustainable to try to split these two groups up.

Demographically this fails within 100 years because the palistinian birth rate is greater than the jewish birthrate and their is more opportunity for immigration from other arab states. So a single state solution results in a minority Jewish population. So in order for any single state solution to work you would need someway of protecting minority rights. And given that all the other arab nations have destroying Isreal on the agenda I dont see a fancy piece of paper ensuring minority rights.

So until such a time that all states recognize israels right to exist a single state solution is non viable.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Azure

Perhaps you should start by admitting that Israel has contributed a lot of good in the region and throughout the world and work from there.

Both sides are entrenched in their view on the conflict, but that is what you get after 50 years of conflict. Israel has been defending their own borders since their country was created. It is pretty much a way of life from them now.

Shocking that they would act like they are whenever someone openly calls for destruction of their country.

The Jewish immigrants have brought a lot to the Middle East, just as any immigrant population does.

I remember my Grandmother telling me stories about her mom traveling from Haifa to Jerusalem to see a Jewish Doctor that was the best in the entire region. I also remember hearing stories about how my Great Grandfather had Jewish employees and co-workers that were his best friends and how he could relate to them just as much as his Arab buddies.

The State of Israel though, I can't get behind it. At least not in its current iteration. Have they brought anything good to the region? I don't know. Democracy, education, women's rights, freedom...etc. Sure, but I can't look past the fact that more than a third of the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean don't get to enjoy those things. They brought all those things for themselves and themselves only and decided to oppress the ones that don't belong to the correct religion.

Originally Posted by GGG

Demographically this fails within 100 years because the palistinian birth rate is greater than the jewish birthrate and their is more opportunity for immigration from other arab states. So a single state solution results in a minority Jewish population. So in order for any single state solution to work you would need someway of protecting minority rights. And given that all the other arab nations have destroying Isreal on the agenda I dont see a fancy piece of paper ensuring minority rights.

So until such a time that all states recognize israels right to exist a single state solution is non viable.

In any democracy, minorities are protected. I'm not calling for mob rule where parties like Hamas or their equivalent on the Jewish side can run for office, murder non-muslims and impose sharia law. What I envision is a secular democracy that guarantees the rights of everyone within its borders and protects its citizens from external threats.

And if it's going to be anyone that can help this sort of thing happen, it is the open minded, peace loving Jews that can help their like minded Arab brothers and sisters get to that point.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What I envision is a secular democracy that guarantees the rights of everyone within its borders and protects its citizens from external threats.

That can only happen if the majority wants it or it's guaranteed by an outside force.

One seems implausible, the other undesirable.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by SebC

That can only happen if the majority wants it or it's guaranteed by an outside force.

One seems implausible, the other undesirable.

Well the two state solution used to be a non-starter for both Palestinians and Israelis a couple of decades ago, but now seems to be the go to answer to the issue since Oslo (although we're nowhere closer to a solution today).

Public opinion can change if people see a tangible improvement in their lives from the change. I think the majority on both sides will tell you "I just want to live in peace with them."

The majority of Americans seem to favour the One State Solution if the Two State Solution fails, viewing Israel's democracy as more important than their Jewishness

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.577597

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

That is not racism. Judging Israelis based on their race would be racism. Most people here have been judging the actions of the Israeli government and SOME Israeli citizens.

It is racism, I am not sure where you are getting your definition from. Even wiki gets into the issue of what we are debating, not just racism but race itself.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Is Israel held to a different standard than the Palenstinians? Yes and they should be. Israel is a liberal democracy that should be held to a higher standard than terrorists like Hamas, or brutal dictators like Assad, or corrupt kingdoms like the Saudi's, or religious extremists like the Ayotalah. Israel is a superior socio/political environment than it's neighbours but that doesn't mean it's perfect and immune from criticism. Throwing out accusations of antisemitism at the first sign of criticism towards Israel is counter-productive to having a reasonable conversation.

You can hold them to a different standard, that is your choice. But to criticize them while ignoring the missiles, etc. is a different issue. Israel has in my opinion gone through great lengths to minimize civilian casualties. Right now Hamas has been firing 100's of rockets and much of the world will say nothing until Israel defends itself. This is the 'different standard' the world has been using, and quite frankly, Israel doesn't seem to care. They will defend themselves. Military and government quotes have all said the same thing - stop the rockets and we won't fire back.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

This thread is a near-perfect microcosm of the actual conflict. There are Palestinian supporters that have a hatred (rational and otherwise) for the state of Israel and can see no good in Israel. There are those that defend Israel no matter what and make excuses for it even when Israel is clearly provoking violence. There are those that can see both sides of the issue and make their arguments and observations impassionately but with compassion and empathy for the suffering on both sides. And finally, there are those who have no idea what they're talking about and should probably stay out of the debate.

I haven't really seen anything in this thread of Israel provoking Palestinians? At least nothing that even comes close to being even worth mentioning while 100s of rockets are being fired.

Honestly, when the debate moves towards actual Israeli actions, I criticize and support based on what I feel is right or wrong. Usually I side with a more peaceful solution. I have been maligned with this thread regardless of the fact I made no comments that could in any way be viewed as extremist or racist.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

The Israel/Palestinian conflict will never be solved (nor will the ongoing debate here) until:

-The Israeli supporters look at the atrocities that Israel HAS committed and hold them to account. And when others do so not label them as anti-semites.
-the Palestinian supporters look at the atrocities that Palestinians, Hamas and virtually every Arab nation in the region (and elsewhere) have committed or attempted to commit against Israel (and continue to do so).

Israel certainly had it's share of issues, but none have been government sanctioned. Nor has Israel been judged on the same level as those that have targeted civilians. Hamas, and other state sanctioned militant groups have killed and targeted far more Arabs than they have Israel. What do they usually have in common? The goal of the destruction of Israel. Right now there are some very upset families in Israel because their own friends or family members were a part of the murder of a Palestinian kid. The rest of the country is angry as well.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

As it stands, each side is so firmly entrenched in their position (both in the region and on this board) that any hope for real peace is unlikely any time soon. The irony is that most Israelis and Palestinians in the region legitimately want peace. When I lived in the area there was very little day to day hostility towards each other. People just went on with their lives. As a matter of fact, my Israeli friend had a best friend that was Palestinian. However, there are powerful factions on both sides that actively destabilize the relationship and the region for their own gain and these factions have successfully infiltrated the psyche and soul of this conversation. It's hard not to get emotional in these kinds of conversation but it's necessary for progress.

As I keep saying, there won't be a chance for much while people are afraid of Hamas and children are indoctrinated into this hatred.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

It is racism, I am not sure where you are getting your definition from.

haha, just the worst.

The Israeli government itself could admit it has terrible policies and you'd still deny it. You'd just jam your head so far in the sand you'd be ####ting sand dunes.

People can disagree with the actions of a good country and it doesn't make them racist. The fact that you jump to that so quick is just completely sad.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The Jewish immigrants have brought a lot to the Middle East, just as any immigrant population does.

I remember my Grandmother telling me stories about her mom traveling from Haifa to Jerusalem to see a Jewish Doctor that was the best in the entire region. I also remember hearing stories about how my Great Grandfather had Jewish employees and co-workers that were his best friends and how he could relate to them just as much as his Arab buddies.

The State of Israel though, I can't get behind it. At least not in its current iteration. Have they brought anything good to the region? I don't know. Democracy, education, women's rights, freedom...etc. Sure, but I can't look past the fact that more than a third of the people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean don't get to enjoy those things. They brought all those things for themselves and themselves only and decided to oppress the ones that don't belong to the correct religion.



In any democracy, minorities are protected. I'm not calling for mob rule where parties like Hamas or their equivalent on the Jewish side can run for office, murder non-muslims and impose sharia law. What I envision is a secular democracy that guarantees the rights of everyone within its borders and protects its citizens from external threats.

And if it's going to be anyone that can help this sort of thing happen, it is the open minded, peace loving Jews that can help their like minded Arab brothers and sisters get to that point.

In any democracy minority rights should be protected but frequently arent. Look a the treatment of any group in a powerless situation. Blacks, gays, women etc have been oppressed by the majority in democracy. When you have that much hate there is no way Isreal can trust that it wont become another arab theocracy as soon as they lose their majority in the army.

Even yourself who seems moderate said in this thread that there is nothing good about Israel. So if you have the most liberal position that doesnt instill much trust that once you have one state where the Jewish population is the minority.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GGG

In any democracy minority rights should be protected but frequently arent. Look a the treatment of any group in a powerless situation. Blacks, gays, women etc have been oppressed by the majority in democracy. When you have that much hate there is no way Isreal can trust that it wont become another arab theocracy as soon as they lose their majority in the army.

Even yourself who seems moderate said in this thread that there is nothing good about Israel. So if you have the most liberal position that doesnt instill much trust that once you have one state where the Jewish population is the minority.

And guess what happens when that occurs? That country gets derided. But oh no, don't criticize Israel, or you might as well be a camp guard at Buchenwald.

It's so annoying that some people are so damn sensitive that they can't handle any criticism.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by nik-

And guess what happens when that occurs? That country gets derided. But oh no, don't criticize Israel, or you might as well be a camp guard at Buchenwald.

It's so annoying that some people are so damn sensitive that they can't handle any criticism.

I dont think Israel is blameless in opressing palestinians and creating a social and economic climate that makes it easier for groups like Hamas to recuit terrorists but that doesnt chane the fact that advocating for a one state solution is the same as advocating for the elimination of Israel.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by nik-

And guess what happens when that occurs? That country gets derided. But oh no, don't criticize Israel, or you might as well be a camp guard at Buchenwald.

It's so annoying that some people are so damn sensitive that they can't handle any criticism.

You have yet to show where any of this occurred. You are making things up.

My claims of antisemitism were aimed at posters who simply smeared and used hateful rhetoric, often in assorted threads. Yet you keep jumping into this insulting me, and yet to post why.

I assume at this point you are simply trolling the thread.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You have yet to show where any of this occurred. You are making things up.

My claims of antisemitism were aimed at posters who simply smeared and used hateful rhetoric, often in assorted threads. Yet you keep jumping into this insulting me, and yet to post why.

I assume at this point you are simply trolling the thread.

Because conversation that's anti-Israel in any form is wasted on you. I just want you to know that you're a bad poster, seriously one of the worst on this site. I don't know how someone who calls so many people racist with absolutely zero justification can be allowed to post here still.

It's a shame.

[Johnny199r]

Both of these countries are ridiculous. How long can you fight? Doesn't it get old?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by GGG

I dont think Israel is blameless in opressing palestinians and creating a social and economic climate that makes it easier for groups like Hamas to recuit terrorists but that doesnt chane the fact that advocating for a one state solution is the same as advocating for the elimination of Israel.

Although I am sure Israeli retaliation can certainly lead to support of Hamas, there are similar groups that exist throughout the middle east, unrelated to Israel. Hamas just happens to be another. Hamas has peace with no group, let alone Israel and Palestinians.

Saudis and Iran (and others) fund Hamas. I think their goal is to promote violence and keep things bad in order to make Israel look bad, keep the cycle going, so that wealthy and prosperous and free Palestinians will not exist. Think of it, if Palestinians really did prosper with Israel, what would that mean to the rest of monarchs/supreme rulers/regimes? Israel certainly has problems, but it is truly a free country which sticks out against some of it's neighbors. Otherwise, how does any of this make sense? Just today Israel offered to pull back the military in exchange for stopping the rockets, instead they shoot more. If Abbas did take steps for peace I don't think he would survive.

I really hope the Arab Spring leads to more people with a similar desire to have increased freedoms and a better understanding/sensitivity of the rest of the world.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because conversation that's anti-Israel in any form is wasted on you. I just want you to know that you're a bad poster, seriously one of the worst on this site. I don't know how someone who calls so many people racist with absolutely zero justification can be allowed to post here still.

It's a shame.

Again, you won't post anything so I assume you are just a troll. And, I should add, attacking me without justification really make you stand out for what you are.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by GGG

In any democracy minority rights should be protected but frequently arent. Look a the treatment of any group in a powerless situation. Blacks, gays, women etc have been oppressed by the majority in democracy. When you have that much hate there is no way Isreal can trust that it wont become another arab theocracy as soon as they lose their majority in the army.

Even yourself who seems moderate said in this thread that there is nothing good about Israel. So if you have the most liberal position that doesnt instill much trust that once you have one state where the Jewish population is the minority.

Look at how blacks, gays and women are treated now in Canada. Pretty well.

And we're not talking about a very large difference in population either. There's about 5.2 Million Jews right now and about 5 Million Palestinians/Arab Israelis in Israel, West Bank and Gaza. If anything, the Jews would be the majority, but only by a tiny amount. Even world wide, there are 14 to 18 Million Jews and about 11 Million Palestinians. The populations are surprisingly similar, with a slight advantage to Jews. When you have two very similar population sizes, no one side really can oppress the other in a democratic society. Look at Belgium for example (4.1 Million French speaking Walloons and 6.5 Million Dutch speaking Flemish) or Switzerland (4.6 million Germans, 1.5 million French and 0.5 million Italians).

Also, I never said anything about hating on Jews. Like I said before, most are good people that just want peace. The state of Israel, however, is a different story.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Again, you won't post anything so I assume you are just a troll. And, I should add, attacking me without justification really make you stand out for what you are.

delicious irony

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by GGG

I dont think Israel is blameless in opressing palestinians and creating a social and economic climate that makes it easier for groups like Hamas to recuit terrorists but that doesnt chane the fact that advocating for a one state solution is the same as advocating for the elimination of Israel.

I agree fully that the one state solution as proposed is basically a long-view destruction through demographics.

The hard truth of the last fifteen years, however, is that there already is a one state solution in place, likely permanently (at least for our lifetimes).

Given the complete unviability of a Palestinian state that is non-contiguous, the impossibility of partitioning Jerusalem, and large scale, permanent settlement blocs throughout the West Bank - there is, and will likely always be, just one state.

It's such a mess.