Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yeah but Canada isn't territory controlled by the United States. Say the Tsutina was lobbing rockets at Calgary. Would it be fair for Canada to send in fighter jets to carpet bomb the Tsutina and go in and demolish homes? No, we would probably undertake a police investigation and bring the perpetrators to justice.

But none of that would happen in Canada anyways because Canada is a nation that respects human rights and equality amongst minorities.

haha, the police are scared to go on reserves i think. I am actually not sure how the govt would try to stop it.

[smoothpops]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Why doesn't the population that holds group like Hamas just expose them and oust them from their ranks? Why do they let them live within their communities? If those threats to Israel were gone - would these issues even exist? I find it hard to believe that Israel goes looking for fights based on what I've seen and read.

It's hard to explain, but i'll give it a shot (there's so much history and intangibles, that one post isn't enough) . Living conditions in Palestine are horrendous. the IDF can basically arrest and burn down/bomb houses indiscriminately (which they do, and they don't). hospitals are underfunded and there's no insurance. food and access to water in some places are cut, and of course there's no jobs and the economy is basically non-existent (Palestinians used to go to Israel and work there during the day, but now they can't reliably get through security check points). All of this has been going on long before Hamas was elected. Here's where Hamas comes in, (and why Palestinians won't just get rid of them);
because of foreign funding (Iran and previously Egypt) Hamas provides jobs and monetary allowances, they act as the police and firecrews, they rebuild houses that have been torn down and give montary compensation, they help build and fund hospitals, they act as insurance companies, they maintain the tunnels so people can smuggle in goods, gas and food. to the outside world they're terrorists, but to Palestinians they're seen as freedom fighters. It's david vs Goliath, and while David may provoke goliath, to them goliath is and has always been a bully. Hamas provides integral services that they depend on, and that dependency has only increased since 2007 when they were voted in as their government.
Anyone that was put in Palestinian conditions would accept Hamas' help. If Hamas had been there offering all this after Katrina, New Orleans would be voting them into office.

[SportsJunky]

Another successful troll job by T@T?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

During the 3 week operation, over 1400 Palestinians were killed, 5300 injured and 50,000 displaced.

Maybe not carpet bombing in the true sense of the word, but how does indiscriminate destruction and murder sound?

You are 100% correct, but failed to mention that this was in response to the never ending rockets being fired. No rockets, no death. It does not get much more simple than that.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by smoothpops

It's hard to explain, but i'll give it a shot (there's so much history and intangibles, that one post isn't enough) . Living conditions in Palestine are horrendous. the IDF can basically arrest and burn down/bomb houses indiscriminately (which they do, and they don't).

Living conditions are often considered better than the rest of the arab world, but yah I figured you would gloss over that. Living conditions of Palestinians living in Israel? World class. Hamas does a terrible job of raising the quality of life via terror. Please let me know when the IDF is doing this. From every good source, the only reason there is any threat from IDF is due to rockets and other terrorism. The fact you do not mention this is very telling and one sided.

Originally Posted by smoothpops

hospitals are underfunded and there's no insurance. food and access to water in some places are cut, and of course there's no jobs and the economy is basically non-existent (Palestinians used to go to Israel and work there during the day, but now they can't reliably get through security check points). All of this has been going on long before Hamas was elected. Here's where Hamas comes in, (and why Palestinians won't just get rid of them);

You forgot to mention that Palestinians get treatment also at Israeli hospitals, including Abbas' wife. Things were going well for Palestinians until the intifadah, why don't you mention that?

Originally Posted by smoothpops

because of foreign funding (Iran and previously Egypt) Hamas provides jobs and monetary allowances, they act as the police and firecrews, they rebuild houses that have been torn down and give montary compensation, they help build and fund hospitals, they act as insurance companies, they maintain the tunnels so people can smuggle in goods, gas and food. to the outside world they're terrorists, but to Palestinians they're seen as freedom fighters.

They also launch rockets from their houses, schools and hospitals. They are seen as freedom fighters due to radical teaching.

Originally Posted by smoothpops

It's david vs Goliath, and while David may provoke goliath, to them goliath is and has always been a bully. Hamas provides integral services that they depend on, and that dependency has only increased since 2007 when they were voted in as their government.

They are terrorists, nice try painting them as anything but.

Originally Posted by smoothpops

Anyone that was put in Palestinian conditions would accept Hamas' help. If Hamas had been there offering all this after Katrina, New Orleans would be voting them into office.

So what do you explain for the radicals in the rest of the Arab world? This is the only region immune to it due to big bad Israel? If things were going well for Palestinians the rest of the Arab world would look pretty bad due to their low standard of living - they cannot afford Palestinians to do well and so fund Hamas.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

attacks on Israel DO work as seen trough Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and southern Lebanon after repeated attacks on Israel.

More lies, this is shameful and terrible, you are basically promoting violence via the claim that it actually works, such a terrible tactic.

Sharon pushed to force Jews out of Gaza (and did so) as an offer of land, with nothing in return. The hope was that this offering would lead to more positive returns from the Palestinians. The concession was absolutely not due to violence, and was actually pushed by the USA.

Instead, Hamas moved into Gaza and destroyed the civilian infrastructure and then murdered their Palestinian political opponents. When people protested, they were killed as well.

Hamas turned Gaza into the disaster it is today and continue this trend with rocket and other terrorist attacks.

Had they valued life, they would have had a great opportunity. But they chose death. Very sad story, and that is basically why Israel allows expansion. If the rest of the world stood up to Hamas and ended this ridiculousness I don't doubt more concessions from Israel.

Israel is absolutely making it clear not only do they have a right to exist safely, but they will carry out their affairs until there is peaceful government to negotiate with.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Israel is by any definition a pariah state

Please share the definition so i have a frame of reference.

that doesn't make me an anti-semite. The fact that you would lob that grenade so early into this conversation shows how little you have to argue or offer about it.

I've already commented on the sad tactic of labeling commentators as anti-Semetic, but sometimes the blade cuts both ways - "go ahead a refute my point, you'll just call me an anti-Semite" is a poor deflector.

Well, between 2013 and 2014 Israel entered into formal peace negotiations with the Palestinians. During that time they seized 50% more land for illegal settlements than the year before and displaced 75% more people. Supposedly while peace negotiations were on.

For other readers - Settlements are a red herring. The Israeli government has proven that they will remove settlements for peace - they removed settlements in Sinai for peace with Egypt; They removed settlements in Gaza without an official agreement and got rocket & mortar fire into their communities. Israel still removes those few outposts that spring up with trailers in the West Bank. Most of any building has been within the "blocs" that have been included as land swaps in the peace process since 1993.

One article questioning the "illegality" of the settlements:
http://http://www.theblaze.com/stori...s-are-illegal/

One article arguing that they are indeed illegal:
http://http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/...nal-law-336507

Here's the thing with people who can't see rationally on this issue. They don't understand the fundamental dynamics that there are no other concessions the Palestinians can offer at this point.

I like to believe that I can look at the issue somewhat rationally and understand the fundamentals.

The fact is that the Palestinians can offer many concessions.
- Concede the right of return and negotiate a compensation package
- Disarm the many militias in area 'C' of the West Bank
- Talk about peace with Israel, living side by side as neighbours in both English & Arabic
- Acknowledge the Jewish ties to the Land of Israel and Jerusalem (According to the PA there was never a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.)
- Renounce violence (they say Hamas has, but Hamas leaders have never said that)
- Make public efforts to end incitement - Get rid of the textbooks that don't show Israel or equate Jews & Christians to apes & pigs
- Officially change their Charter by removing those sections that call for the destruction of Israel.

And, Yes, Israel can go farther too:
- Stop all construction in the West Bank
- Remove checkpoints that do not lead directly into Israel.
- Give the PA an opportunity to assert it's authority before rushing in.
- Expedite due process on accused terrorists so that no one is held with out charge.
- Agree to accept some family reunion immigration

(and yes, I am sure there is more all around)


In North America Jews who express the far left opinion are often ridiculed, called A"self-hating" and are not invited to parties they wouldn't want to go to anyway. In Israel they are both respected and called names.

A Palestinian mob beat up to Palestinians today because they looked like they might be Israelis.

An Israeli leader goes left publicly s/he will likely only lose their seat in Parliament (though Tzipi Livni seems to be holding on just fine).

A Palestinian leader who publicly calls for peace and concessions is likely to lose his life.

Some posts have noted "treatment of minorities" - Interestingly Israel has never insisted that it's Arab minority move to Palestine during the peace process. It is the Palestinians that have demanded that no Jews live in their country, even as dhimnis (Islamic second class citizens).

I am happy to debate policies on both sides - house demolitions; school textbooks; security fences; violent resistance.

But I also look out for the three 'D's of antisemitism - Double standards, Delegitimization, and De-humanization (demonization).

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Sharon pushed to force Jews out of Gaza (and did so) as an offer of land, with nothing in return. The hope was that this offering would lead to more positive returns from the Palestinians. The concession was absolutely not due to violence, and was actually pushed by the USA.

Though I like to think the hope of positive returns vis a vis the Palestinians was a part of their thinking, I am sure the cost in both treasure and Israeli public opinion lead to the disengagement. IIRC for the few years before the disengagement many Israelis were questioning the extensive effort to protect and secure the Jewish communities of Gaza. At one point I think there was one IDF soldier for every Jew in Gaza. What Sharon got was grief from the right in Israel and a pat on the back from the left & the US. Israel got daily rocket & mortar fire.

Instead, Hamas moved into Gaza and destroyed the civilian infrastructure and then murdered their Palestinian political opponents. When people protested, they were killed as well.

Now, now - Hamas did build malls, smuggler's tunnels, and launching pads.

Hamas turned Gaza into the disaster it is today and continue this trend with rocket and other terrorist attacks.

Had they valued life, they would have had a great opportunity. But they chose death. Very sad story, and that is basically why Israel allows expansion. If the rest of the world stood up to Hamas and ended this ridiculousness I don't doubt more concessions from Israel.

Israel is absolutely making it clear not only do they have a right to exist safely, but they will carry out their affairs until there is peaceful government to negotiate with.

no argument there.

[WCW Nitro]

Here's the thing, even during relatively peaceful times, Israel makes life miserable for the Palestinians. They withhold tax payments to the Palestinians ($100 million just last month), divert water to illegal settlements, etc. Then when someone launches a rocket, Israel is all look they want death instead of life. You can't slow torture a population and expect peace.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You are 100% correct, but failed to mention that this was in response to the never ending rockets being fired. No rockets, no death. It does not get much more simple than that.

And those rockets were launched because of Israeli sanctions. You fail to mention that. We can play this game until next year. At the end of the day, Israel collectively punished the Palestinian people harshly and created a humanitarian crisis.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

More lies, this is shameful and terrible, you are basically promoting violence via the claim that it actually works, such a terrible tactic.

Sharon pushed to force Jews out of Gaza (and did so) as an offer of land, with nothing in return. The hope was that this offering would lead to more positive returns from the Palestinians. The concession was absolutely not due to violence, and was actually pushed by the USA.

Instead, Hamas moved into Gaza and destroyed the civilian infrastructure and then murdered their Palestinian political opponents. When people protested, they were killed as well.

Hamas turned Gaza into the disaster it is today and continue this trend with rocket and other terrorist attacks.

Had they valued life, they would have had a great opportunity. But they chose death. Very sad story, and that is basically why Israel allows expansion. If the rest of the world stood up to Hamas and ended this ridiculousness I don't doubt more concessions from Israel.

Israel is absolutely making it clear not only do they have a right to exist safely, but they will carry out their affairs until there is peaceful government to negotiate with.

Again I'm not promoting violence. Someone asked why the Palestinians don't hand over Hamas and I replied with my ideas on the matter.

And Israel does have a partner in peace, yet Israel refuses to negotiate with the Abbas government, while continuing to build settlements and demolishing homes.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Here's the thing, even during relatively peaceful times, Israel makes life miserable for the Palestinians. They withhold tax payments to the Palestinians ($100 million just last month), divert water to illegal settlements, etc. Then when someone launches a rocket, Israel is all look they want death instead of life. You can't slow torture a population and expect peace.

Relatively peaceful times ????

Technically Israel has always been "at war". Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, & Iran all declared was with Israel. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP are all at war with Israel.

Relatively peaceful times means no rockets, but the random bus or pizzeria bombing here or there?

Before the Israelis showed up most Arab villages in the West Bank & Gaza didn't have indoor plumbing or paved roads.

Water rights will indeed be an issue (possibly a violent one) throughout the region. That is a peace process issue, but as it stands everyone is dipping into everyone else's wells. The major blocs get their water from Israel's aquafiers 7 De-salinization plants.

Israel withholds taxes that they collect for 2 reasons - 1) as a stick to get the PA to co-operate and 2) because the PA doesn't pay their bills - they get their gas & electricity from Israel, not other Arab states, and balk at paying for it.

As a tactic I have little issue with withholding PA tax dollars. It is far less bloody.
We are not talking about just one rocket, it is thousands of mortars & rockets.

You also can't keep poking the cubs and expect mama bear to take it with a smile.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Relatively peaceful times ????

Technically Israel has always been "at war". Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, & Iran all declared was with Israel. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP are all at war with Israel.

Relatively peaceful times means no rockets, but the random bus or pizzeria bombing here or there?

Before the Israelis showed up most Arab villages in the West Bank & Gaza didn't have indoor plumbing or paved roads.

Water rights will indeed be an issue (possibly a violent one) throughout the region. That is a peace process issue, but as it stands everyone is dipping into everyone else's wells. The major blocs get their water from Israel's aquafiers 7 De-salinization plants.

Israel withholds taxes that they collect for 2 reasons - 1) as a stick to get the PA to co-operate and 2) because the PA doesn't pay their bills - they get their gas & electricity from Israel, not other Arab states, and balk at paying for it.

As a tactic I have little issue with withholding PA tax dollars. It is far less bloody.
We are not talking about just one rocket, it is thousands of mortars & rockets.

You also can't keep poking the cubs and expect mama bear to take it with a smile.

And that goes both ways.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Though I like to think the hope of positive returns vis a vis the Palestinians was a part of their thinking, I am sure the cost in both treasure and Israeli public opinion lead to the disengagement. IIRC for the few years before the disengagement many Israelis were questioning the extensive effort to protect and secure the Jewish communities of Gaza.

For sure, I agree completely. I think one of the big decisions was to put the Palestinians in a position to demonstrate to the world if independence could work. I don't think it worked.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

At one point I think there was one IDF soldier for every Jew in Gaza. What Sharon got was grief from the right in Israel and a pat on the back from the left & the US. Israel got daily rocket & mortar fire.

Keep in mind Israel wanted to keep people safe; could a demonstration of peace fulfill that desire? No, and the rhetoric just keeps coming. I remember years ago the violence was 'due' to Israeli atrocities. Now that everyone has a camera the 'cause' had to move to something else.

I understand Israeli people have now murdered a Palestinian - simply disgusting. I think my comment clears the air and demonstrates a obvious difference in the sides of this debate. You can be pro Israel and vehemently anti violence and also pro Palestinian, but you must cherish life and wish the best for Palestinians who would be much better off without Hamas.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Now, now - Hamas did build malls, smuggler's tunnels, and launching pads.

While Israel built bomb shelters...a sad story.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

And Israel does have a partner in peace, yet Israel refuses to negotiate with the Abbas government, while continuing to build settlements and demolishing homes.

How is a group that was founded to "liberate Palestine from the river to the sea" and whose charter and sole purpose is the destruction of Israel a partner for peace?

"The Obama Administration on Wednesday signaled its support for Israel’s decision to cancel further peace talks with the Palestinian Authority after the latter concluded a unity agreement with the Hamas terrorist organization.
“It’s hard to see how Israel can be expected to sit down and negotiate with a group that denies its right to exist,” US State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki said in reference to Hamas." Israel Today - April 24, 2014.



Both sides now have demands before they will even consider peace talks.
- The Palestinians demand a building freeze and a framework for the final status (essentially wanting to know the outcome before negotiations).
- The Israelis won't negotiate with a PA government that includes Hamas - a terrorist organization. And while Abbas keeps trying to convince the world in English that Hamas is either not really a part of the PA or is onside with non-violence, their leaders spout the same old hate, with calls to violent acts and kidnapping.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

^^ Because its a tough sell for the average Joe in Gaza or the West Bank to believe that Israel will ease up on them and leave them alone.

History shows the Palestinians that 1) Israel wants to annex the Palestinian territories, build settlements and drive the Palestinians out. 2) attacks on Israel DO work as seen trough Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and southern Lebanon after repeated attacks on Israel.

History shows the exact opposite actually.

Hamas was voted in after Israel withdrew from Gaza, not the other way around.

Similarly, in Lebanon, Hezbollah only began to attack as Israel was withdrawing.

In both cases it was Israel withdrawal that caused militia groups to fill a vacuum.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Here's the thing, even during relatively peaceful times, Israel makes life miserable for the Palestinians. They withhold tax payments to the Palestinians ($100 million just last month), divert water to illegal settlements, etc. Then when someone launches a rocket, Israel is all look they want death instead of life. You can't slow torture a population and expect peace.

You are correct, Israel did withhold tax payments. Israel has occasionally stopped the transfer due to what it determines to be threats to it's security. You do realize that Israel collects the taxes on their behalf? As for Hamas, they were certainly raking in more cash due to their smuggling operations which included weaponry. As for ceasefires, the only time Hamas is in a ceasefire is when they are stockpiling more weapons or have run out of parts. It simply does not end.

Cash, water, settlements, etc are all in Israel's hands and will be until there is peace. If Hamas dropped it's charter to destroy Israel, there may be some movement on this. In the meantime, the people suffer. I am sorry your perspective allows you to see that as Israel's fault. To me it very clearly is not.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

How is a group that was founded to "liberate Palestine from the river to the sea" and whose charter and sole purpose is the destruction of Israel a partner for peace?

"The Obama Administration on Wednesday signaled its support for Israel’s decision to cancel further peace talks with the Palestinian Authority after the latter concluded a unity agreement with the Hamas terrorist organization.
“It’s hard to see how Israel can be expected to sit down and negotiate with a group that denies its right to exist,” US State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki said in reference to Hamas." Israel Today - April 24, 2014.



Both sides now have demands before they will even consider peace talks.
- The Palestinians demand a building freeze and a framework for the final status (essentially wanting to know the outcome before negotiations).
- The Israelis won't negotiate with a PA government that includes Hamas - a terrorist organization. And while Abbas keeps trying to convince the world in English that Hamas is either not really a part of the PA or is onside with non-violence, their leaders spout the same old hate, with calls to violent acts and kidnapping.

Again the street goes both ways:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrae...fire%20li.aspx

Israel stands at the crossroads of Europe, Asia and Africa. Geographically, it belongs to the Asian continent. Its western border is the Mediterranean Sea. To the north it is bound by Lebanon and Syria, to the east by Jordan and to the south by the Red Sea and Egypt. Long and narrow in shape, Israel is about 290 miles (470 km.) long and 85 miles (135 km.) across at its widest point. Its total area is 22,145 sq km, of which 21,671 sq km is land area.

And there are no parties in the Keneset that call for the destruction of Palestine (or what's left of it)?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Relatively peaceful times ????

Water rights will indeed be an issue (possibly a violent one) throughout the region. That is a peace process issue, but as it stands everyone is dipping into everyone else's wells. The major blocs get their water from Israel's aquafiers 7 De-salinization plants.

Israel withholds taxes that they collect for 2 reasons - 1) as a stick to get the PA to co-operate and 2) because the PA doesn't pay their bills - they get their gas & electricity from Israel, not other Arab states, and balk at paying for it.

As a tactic I have little issue with withholding PA tax dollars. It is far less bloody.
We are not talking about just one rocket, it is thousands of mortars & rockets.

You also can't keep poking the cubs and expect mama bear to take it with a smile.

Approx. 450,000 Israeli illegal West Bank settlers get 5 times more water than the 2 million Palestinians. This is not "everyone dips into everyone else's wells". It's Israel treating the Palestinians like garbage. And last month they withheld $100 million because the Swiss government allowed Palestine to join the Geneva convention regarding rules of war and occupation. Before that, Israel withheld taxes when Palestine was granted upgraded status at the UN. So, basically whenever Palestine tries to become part of the int'l community, Israel responds by withholding their money. Yup, israel sure wants peace.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

And those rockets were launched because of Israeli sanctions. You fail to mention that. We can play this game until next year. At the end of the day, Israel collectively punished the Palestinian people harshly and created a humanitarian crisis.

Israel simply does what it takes to be safe. Have you ever wondered what would happen if Hamas declared peace and enforced an end to violence?

Originally Posted by _Q_

Again I'm not promoting violence. Someone asked why the Palestinians don't hand over Hamas and I replied with my ideas on the matter.

Your ideas tend to support violence. In no way do I. I condemn the killing of a Palestinian and I see posts here condemning Israel for the killing of the other kids. There is a death cult, this is not politics, it is simply the same old that is tearing the region apart. If Hamas could take over the West Bank violently the same way they took Gaza violently (from Palestinians) they would. At some point the West Bank could really do well but people fear Hamas. The suffering must continue unless Palestinians stand up AGAINST violence. How many missiles do they have to launch before they realize it is futile?

Originally Posted by _Q_

And Israel does have a partner in peace, yet Israel refuses to negotiate with the Abbas government, while continuing to build settlements and demolishing homes.

Abbas apparently has made peace with Hamas. There goes that idea.

Anyways, I appreciate the conversation, just please, the rhetoric has to go.

[Flash Walken]

In South Africa, the RNC were once outlawed, criminalized as a terrorist organization.

Relegated to ghettos, their movements were tightly controlled, commerce was severely limited and they were denied voting rights to participate in the government that oversaw their ghettoization.

For years, the international community routinely urged South Africa to normalize relations of the races, until such a point they began to pass sanctions and boycotts of South African goods.

Eventually, not even the United States could shield South Africa from the international pressure and an organization that was once regarded as a terrorist organization is the current ruling party of the country.