Would you like to point us to some other media then? Anything but RT.
The links I have been posting are from Al Jazeera.
Actually what russian media are reporting on the current invasion is more or less the same as what the western media do. Putin was "given the right" to use force by the government but it's unclear when and how he will use it.
As for the "whole picture" of what happen Ukraine, it is indeed a very deep and many-side story though.
Stop reading listening only to western media and then maybe you will get the whole picture. And one last comment as for Russia not being able to trade with civilized countries, the world is more than depended on russian oil and gas for now... it can always switch back to Iran of course. You guys just always have rose colored glasses regarding all of the west's action, but as soon as Russia does anything they are barbarians.
So are you saying this *isn't* a Russian power-grab?
Wow the peacefulness of the Olympics just a week ago and now this?!?! Looks like hosting the Olympics for Putin may even be part of the tactics...Cloak and Dagger technique. This does not look good for the long term of the world....
Never. Thing is, Russia doesn't need war right outside its borders. Reports says we have 140 000 refugees from Ukraine already. Russia is reacting - wrongly, in my opinion - but in no way Russia itself has created the coup and the whole situation. We need safe and fairly rich Ukraine, to pay for the gas and casue no troubles on the borders, at least.
“Russia did not interfere in the situation in Ukraine for a very long time and showed restraint, assuming that the Western states, which became backers of the agreements, would see that strict compliance with the deal is observed,” she said.
However, after “violent upheaval” took place in Ukraine, the Western states did not come up with “any reasonable measures or responses,” Matvienko said.
So according to the RT, because the deal to keep Yanukovych in power till the end of the year fell through, it's a violent upheaval now. Last I checked, the deaths happened during the crackdown protest periods and did not have anything to do with the post-protest negotiations.
Russia responds by violating national sovereignty at a time of political crisis and instead of letting Ukrainians decide their own fates/separation through referendums sends in troops to force the issue. How is this anything but a land grab?
So according to the RT, because the deal to keep Yanukovych in power till the end of the year fell through, it's a violent upheaval now. Last I checked, the deaths happened during the crackdown protest periods and did not have anything to do with the post-protest negotiations.
Russia responds by violating national sovereignty at a time of political crisis and instead of letting Ukrainians decide their own fates/separation through referendums sends in troops to force the issue. How is this anything but a land grab?
For the record, I do not support the invasion at all.
That said, most likely the majority of crimeans would rather live in Russia than Ukraine. Simple because most of them are Russians and would rather live in richer, far more stable country.
That's a rather snide comment considering people are just discussing the topic and providing opinion much like you are.
I apologize or that, but I keep hearing here terms like lazy russian, and claims that Russia is not a civilized country etc. I try not to comment, but this is just a very touchy subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by worth
Would you like to point us to some other media then? Anything but RT.
The links I have been posting are from Al Jazeera.
Yesterday about 300 armed men claiming to be from the Maidan broke into a sports club of people against it, it was evacuated ahead of time. The police just stood by because it is now ileagal to touch those protestors. This event essentially brought the fight between the crowds I posted in my previous post.
Also, the current government is now closing both tv chanels and businesses asociated with the previous government (propoganda of course). People are being both attacked and robbed by those peacful protestors (from both sides) meanwhile the police does nothing.
I just want you guys to remember that there are always two sides to every coin. Yes, currently I argue only one side, but that is because there is enough info here regarding the other side already.
So are you saying this *isn't* a Russian power-grab?
Nope, that is exactly what it is. However, the oppostion in Ukraine did exactly the same using a mob. The mob by the way was not protesting for them but against government corruption. corruption that is there to stay. The only question remaining is which thief will be in power.
Protesters in Kharkov have raised a Russian flag over their parliament building. I wonder if these are actual protesters or plants of some kind. Donetsk also had a number of pro Russian rallies happen earlier in the today. How many will "request" Russian intervention and how many troops will the Russians send?
Kharkiv has about 450000 ethnically russians citizens (30% of population).
Donetsk has MORE russians (493 000) than ukranians (478000).
No need for "plants"
Last edited by Pointman; 03-01-2014 at 01:22 PM.
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For the record, I do not support the invasion at all.
That said, most likely the majority of crimeans would rather live in Russia than Ukraine. Simple because most of them are Russians and would rather live in richer, far more stable country.
Yes, which is why Russia should mind their own affairs and let the Ukrainians separate the country if they wanted via a referendum. This would be likely to happen with EU monitoring. The way RT tries to spin the agreements falling apart as justification for use of force and violation of a nations border is a blatant slant.
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I can't blame Putin for wanting Crimea. You eliminate the need to play nice with your neighbour over leasing agreements for their Black Sea naval base if you just take the land. If Ukraine were to "go over" to the west, he may have problems working out deals with them in the future.
I think the average Russian is like the average Canadian or Thai or Kenyan, they just want a roof over their head and a job to provide for their family. Their leadership is quite ruthless however.
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Russian media claims that about 143000 refugees fleed from Ukraine to Russia "since the situation deteriorated".
That should be the solution. If you don't want to be in the Ukraine, go to Russia. Yes it used to be part of the Soviet Union, but it's been 20 years for gods sake. It isn't like they just gave this territory to the Ukraine last month.
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I can't blame Putin for wanting Crimea. You eliminate the need to play nice with your neighbour over leasing agreements for their Black Sea naval base if you just take the land. If Ukraine were to "go over" to the west, he may have problems working out deals with them in the future.
I'm still not sure if the plan is to actually grab the land or just show off some power, or maybe it is indeed to protect Russian fleet base and Russian population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
I think the average Russian is like the average Canadian or Thai or Kenyan, they just want a roof over their head and a job to provide for their family. Their leadership is quite ruthless however.
5 people were arrested tonight in Moscow for protesting against the war. We are scared, if anything, given that it's happening so close to us. It's not that Crimea is some sort of paradise lost either. I'm not sure if such war will be any popular in Russia at all (although I have yet to see any polls on the matter).
I'm still not sure if the plan is to actually grab the land or just show off some power, or maybe it is indeed to protect Russian fleet base and Russian population.
5 people were arrested tonight in Moscow for protesting against the war. We are scared, if anything, given that it's happening so close to us. It's not that Crimea is some sort of paradise lost either. I'm not sure if such war will be any popular in Russia at all (although I have yet to see any polls on the matter).
You act like Russians really have a voice....
If a questionnaire would to come out it would look like the election polls in north Korea
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Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
I'm still not sure if the plan is to actually grab the land or just show off some power, or maybe it is indeed to protect Russian fleet base and Russian population.
5 people were arrested tonight in Moscow for protesting against the war. We are scared, if anything, given that it's happening so close to us. It's not that Crimea is some sort of paradise lost either. I'm not sure if such war will be any popular in Russia at all (although I have yet to see any polls on the matter).
I believe (just my opinion) that Russia will annex Crimea. It is very important strategically for Putin and has a sympathetic populace. As far Putin doing a show of force I don't see the point, what's the end game for Putin? Everyone already knows Russia is the strongman in the region. He has nothing to gain from flexing his military muscle then backing off. No, Putin is looking at this situation and how it will benefit him and the Russian federation down the road. The situation in Ukraine was an ideal excuse for Putin to seize Crimea on the basis of protecting the citizenry and military installations there.
He's an extremely intelligent and calculating man, everything he is doing here has been in the works for awhile I'd imagine.
Matthew Fisher @mfisheroverseas 5h
Balaclava, near Sevastopol, already full of Russian troops. Wild rumours about full invasion of eastern Ukraine. #Ukraine #Crimea
I believe (just my opinion) that Russia will annex Crimea. It is very important strategically for Putin and has a sympathetic populace. As far Putin doing a show of force I don't see the point, what's the end game for Putin? Everyone already knows Russia is the strongman in the region. He has nothing to gain from flexing his military muscle then backing off. No, Putin is looking at this situation and how it will benefit him and the Russian federation down the road. The situation in Ukraine was an ideal excuse for Putin to seize Crimea on the basis of protecting the citizenry and military installations there.
He's an extremely intelligent and calculating man, everything he is doing here has been in the works for awhile I'd imagine.
It's only speculations at this point and my guesses are as good, as anyone else. However, I do not think that this whole thing was set up to annex Crimea. The Fleet Base agreement was in place till 2043. Ukraine was fairly stable and was paying gas bills. There was a lot of business going on between two countries. There was no point for Putin and Russia to send Ukraine into this anarchy just for the sake of annexing crimea. Even if Ukraine would peacefully enter EU - they still had to respect the Fleet agreement and Ukraine would still be getting paid $100M a year for the lease. Crimea has no oil, gas or anything of interest, aside from the base. If the plan was to create this anarchy and annex Crimea - which I doubt - Russia will lose way more than it would gain.
Matthew Fisher @mfisheroverseas 5h
Balaclava, near Sevastopol, already full of Russian troops. Wild rumours about full invasion of eastern Ukraine. #Ukraine #Crimea
On opposite, Russian media stresses that Putin only was granted permission to use troops, but didn't actually deploy any troops, aside from small (2-6K) group sent in Crimea before.
Russia needs to be held to account for this if they invade, totally unacceptable. I agree that you need to stabilize Ukrane but you do that in conjunction with the international community, not unilaterally.
Russia would get destroyed if this conflict escalates, not that it would be good for anybody but this isn't the 80s anymore.
Russia hasn't grown at all since the 80s, since then the states has gained approx 100 million people. They do not have the resources to duel the west on equal footing anymore.
