Alberta students to define their own gender

[peter12]

Oh, this thread is so pious.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh, this thread is so pious.

Good thing you're totally above smugness eh.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Good thing you're totally above smugness eh.

Well, they are different things.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Shaming people to fit into a category they do not identify with is exactly what I was referring to when I said 20th century thinking.

It's appalling that you are not willing to be inclusive and accepting which we all know is one of the causes of depression. That is what Bell Let's Talk day is supposed to be about - letting people with mental illness, like depression, know that they are not going to be shunned or stigmatized.

It seems like that message has failed you.

He's talking about competitive sports. By definition they are not "inclusive and accepting", that's why cuts exist. At some point it has to matter what you are biologically as you move up the competitive sports ladder. Maybe you draw the line at high school, maybe not. Your post goes way too far attacking Polak as a person though.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by polak

The logic is that I don't think this will work for sports. At all.

I would suspect that high school sports rules can adapt to accommodate the change. There are multiple options for approaching that, such as identifying by biological sex or developing co-ed leagues. Not saying either are good solutions to this, but there are ways to adapt the system. This seems like a problem with some fairly workable solutions.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by polak

Lots of high school kids?

You find me a non-transgendered male who will decide to self identify as female in order to play girls volleyball and dominate at it. It's ridiculous.

And if a transgendered male identifying as female(sorry if I'm butchering pronouns) wants to play on the women's team I'm okay with that. It represents such a small number of cases that the issue can be dealt if it becomes a problem.

There is a female MMA fighter who was Male who is worth reading interviews about. While under hormone therapy she believes she has no advantage and has doctors backing that position.

On this issue I always struggle because I just don't understand the concept of gender. I mean I don't "feel" male or "female". I just am male but I don't think I'd notice the difference if I was female. But that lack of understanding on my part is my problem so when the opportunity is there to reduce harm at no cost we should take it.

It's not like every kids is going to have a check box with gender when they start. It will likely come up right at registration and it will be noted to teachers and teachers will follow it. Basically a non issue

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Good thing you're totally above smugness eh.

That is gut-bustingly hilarious coming from you.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Locke

That is gut-bustingly hilarious coming from you.

Pious T. Smugness here.

Have you met my wife, Justice Q. BeyondReproach?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Ah yes, the old "quit being intolerant of my intolerance" argument.

Still waiting for a better argument to tell me why this will solve the problem than "won't you think of the children."

Anti-bullying programs were a massive failure as well. How will this be any different?

[polak]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Shaming people to fit into a category they do not identify with is exactly what I was referring to when I said 20th century thinking.

It's appalling that you are not willing to be inclusive and accepting which we all know is one of the causes of depression. That is what Bell Let's Talk day is supposed to be about - letting people with mental illness, like depression, know that they are not going to be shunned or stigmatized.

It seems like that message has failed you.

Wow. What a gigantic leap you made.

It's appalling that I think the biological sex you're born into makes a very real difference in sports? Really? Does that appal you? Am I a terrible person for thinking it's ridiculous that you're asking to basically remove fair athletic competition from schools because it's apparently too hard for a kid to play with whatever gender they're born into?

Cause that is what you're suggesting.

Here are the options laid out:

A) We let people play in whatever gender they identify in - Super. Guess the girls who have to compete against biological males for spots and for awards that might make a difference in their athletic careers should just suck it up.

B) We scrap gender divided sports and make everything co-ed - Alright well too bad for any girls that can no longer make any teams cause the guys take all the spots. Suck it up.

C) We leave it like it is. Biological males play with the males and biological females play with the females - Nothing happens. Everything is fine. Those who aren't comfortable with that will have to suck it up.

Notice any recurring theme? All options end up with someone getting the short end of the stick but I can tell you that option C is quite obviously the most fair option that negatively impacts the least amount of people and doesn't take away the opportunity for anyone to play the sport.

A and B on the other hand are 100% special snowflake territory. We're taking away the right for others to enjoy a biologically even playing field so that the few special snowflakes can play too. Note that I'm not calling all transgendered people special snowflakes. I'm calling the ones who would otherwise refuse to play sports in their biologically defined gender category special snowflakes. They need the entire sporting world shifted around for them.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

C) We leave it like it is. Biological Men play with the men and Biological Women play with the women - Nothing happens. Everything is fine. Those who aren't comfortable with that will have to suck it up.

We're talking about boys, not men. Girls not women.

[polak]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

We're talking about boys, not men. Girls not women.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Just follow the posts led to that and you will see that it was not in relation or response to the transgender argument but to the connection between intolerance and totalitarianism comments.

Give respect and you shall receive respect.

This is how the conversation started:

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh geeze, this crap again. It's not totalitarian to take certain opinions more seriously than others when their supporting arguments merit it.

And you responded with this:

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

You are correct. This is not totalitarian. This is aggressively intolerant to an opposing opinion. It does become totalitarian, when this same aggressive intolerance starts coming from the government, educational institutions and mass-media.

We are in a thread talking about accommodations for transgender students in order to make schools more inclusive for them. The opposing view of that is to not make them more inclusive for these students. You're the one who brings intolerance into the discussion and attributes it to the government and the pro-inclusiveness crowd. If you were speaking in more abstract terms, not related to this particular discussion, you picked a really weird spot to place your argument, and also didn't do a very good job of identifying it as abstract.

[peter12]

What kind of accommodations, and how would they be effective? I have had personal experiences with family members being part of GSA's, and other outreach groups for gay teenagers, and they were creepy or otherwise, totally useless.

[VladtheImpaler]

I don't agree with Polak often, but when I do, it's Dos Equis.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

crappy movie gif

They're very different, have you started puberty yet?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Still waiting for a better argument to tell me why this will solve the problem than "won't you think of the children."

Why do I need a better argument than "yeah, I think we should be doing more to prevent the deaths of trans-children, and this is more likely to help than hurt the situation?"

Anti-bullying programs were a massive failure as well.

Source?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why do I need a better argument than "yeah, I think we should be doing more to prevent the deaths of trans-children, and this is more likely to help than hurt the situation?"



Source?

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/

Yeah, that is a sentiment, not an argument. I also believe we need to prevent the deaths of trans-children. Do you think I'm not? Are you actually insinuating that your opponents are in favour of kids dying? That is kind of pathetic.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

What kind of accommodations, and how would they be effective? I have had personal experiences with family members being part of GSA's, and other outreach groups for gay teenagers, and they were creepy or otherwise, totally useless.

Cool. Anecdotal stories are fun. We have gender neutral bathrooms at my university, as well as a number tremendously effective student groups for LGBTQ students, who are quite thankful to have them. It's almost as if the execution of a concept is as important as the concept itself.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/

Yeah, that is a sentiment, not an argument. I also believe we need to prevent the deaths of trans-children. Do you think I'm not? Are you actually insinuating that your opponents are in favour of kids dying? That is kind of pathetic.

Nope, which is why I added the second part. I think these policies will at worst result in a neutral outcome, and at best maybe improve the experience of being transgender student.