Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Coach]

Middle management want people back in the office because it's the only thing that gives their job meaning. The jobs below them may be able to get offshored or something, but they still need to be done by someone somewhere. Middle management have always been adult babysitters breathing over the necks of people that would otherwise be perfectly productive with like a weekly zoom check-in vs a daily "Hey Peter, what's happening?" And they are where the real salary bloat is. A couple hundred grand a year to a handful of "VPs of whatever" that can be done by one person making 1/2 that.

[Scroopy Noopers]

As an engineering consultant, I don’t understand what people even talk about when they say “slacking off working remote”.

My timesheet is 15 min increments, billed to individual projects. I either work the time, or I don’t have a timesheet to submit… and you can’t cheat that at all… like, I have to finish the work… and share it… work from home made my days easier but way longer.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You can do that remotely, too, FYI.

But it doesn’t happen as naturally. I worked remotely for years and few people called outside of meetings, but when I travelled to a location I was overwhelmed with individual discussions. I’m not sure that made me more productive but sure made me more connected.

Edit: there’s also something about a white board that just can’t be replicated online for complex technical discussions, without actual smart boards in each location.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Titan2

I don't think that is what he said, or is my experience. The management needs to adjust its management style to ensure that the work-from-home experience is working for everyone. It absolutely does not mean more micro management. It means clearly delineating tasks and ensuring they are completed properly. That can be, and is in hundreds of work settings, being done already. Peggy from HR and the boomer bosses are the ones that are the dicks. I know one of the companies I WFHed saved millions of dollars a year when they went to WFH. That buys a lot of production declines, except there were'nt any.

You just said the same thing in a nicer way. Management needs to adjust its management style means you need to replace half your management. This may be a good thing long term but you just identified the costs of working from home.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by edslunch

But it doesn’t happen as naturally. I worked remotely for years and few people called outside of meetings, but when I travelled to a location I was overwhelmed with individual discussions. I’m not sure that made me more productive but sure made me more connected.

Edit: there’s also something about a white board that just can’t be replicated online for complex technical discussions, without actual smart boards in each location.

This is my experience as well. When I am in the office I get engaged in a lot of questions and discussions that don’t really happen over Teams.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by edslunch

But it doesn’t happen as naturally. I worked remotely for years and few people called outside of meetings, but when I travelled to a location I was overwhelmed with individual discussions. I’m not sure that made me more productive but sure made me more connected.

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

This is my experience as well. When I am in the office I get engaged in a lot of questions and discussions that don’t really happen over Teams.

It just takes people putting in the same effort they put in in-person online. I understand it not feeling natural or whatever, especially if you’re older or have been doing it one way for a long time, but it really isn’t any different when you put the effort in to the point where eventually it feels just as effortless and natural.

In my experience, I would say people 45-50+ struggle the most. You pretty much have to reach out to them because they won’t reach out to you, but they place a lot of importance on it, so they take a bit of extra management. Younger than that it mostly depends on the person, but in either case, you can accomplish the same.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by edslunch

But it doesn’t happen as naturally. I worked remotely for years and few people called outside of meetings, but when I travelled to a location I was overwhelmed with individual discussions. I’m not sure that made me more productive but sure made me more connected.

Edit: there’s also something about a white board that just can’t be replicated online for complex technical discussions, without actual smart boards in each location.

I mean… you can have a preference. But there is absolutely a suitable replacement for a whiteboard in a meeting. Most meetings I am in people are sketching ideas/changes in BlueBeam on a shared screen… it’s the exact same thing. Not being used to it? Sure, that’s a thing. But the same need can be met easily.

[Slava]

It’s just not the same thing though. Sure, you can contact someone on Teams or Zoom and have that conversation, but the organic conversation in the office and then someone else jumping in and offering an idea or thought just isn’t happening the same way.

And the the Slack/Teams/WhatsApp messaging doesn’t replace human interaction either. We all know that in-person communication is totally different from text communication and conversation. I think it’s naive to assume that this doesn’t make a difference when you’re talking about business or related issues.

[Muta]

I like a hybrid setup, I can WFH one day a week if I need to (and of course if I'm sick). But for the most part, I actually really like being in the studio daily - I love being around other people and talking with them directly, I love going for lunch, I have a way better ergonomic setup there too; I spend way less time on Slack and my phone, and I find the vibe is just better too when I can directly chat and laugh with others. I'd go insane if I had to WFH every day; that's too much of being a shut-in for me for my liking. But then again, I'm a pretty social guy, and have a really nice work environment to go into every day.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Slava

It’s just not the same thing though. Sure, you can contact someone on Teams or Zoom and have that conversation, but the organic conversation in the office and then someone else jumping in and offering an idea or thought just isn’t happening the same way.

And the the Slack/Teams/WhatsApp messaging doesn’t replace human interaction either. We all know that in-person communication is totally different from text communication and conversation. I think it’s naive to assume that this doesn’t make a difference when you’re talking about business or related issues.

There are cases to be made for both. While I like personal interaction in the office, I observe some of the younger employees in their Teams calls with each other and they’ve got a real good handle on collaborating that way. It’s not for me, but it works. They also tend to keep group calls open throughout the whole day so it’s not as disjointed as it could be.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It just takes people putting in the same effort they put in in-person online. I understand it not feeling natural or whatever, especially if you’re older or have been doing it one way for a long time, but it really isn’t any different when you put the effort in to the point where eventually it feels just as effortless and natural.

In my experience, I would say people 45-50+ struggle the most. You pretty much have to reach out to them because they won’t reach out to you, but they place a lot of importance on it, so they take a bit of extra management. Younger than that it mostly depends on the person, but in either case, you can accomplish the same.

Good points, but you’ve highlighted the problem. Someone who is good at remote work and has the right tools has no issues at all, until they’re on a remote meeting with a group of people who aren’t and don’t. Or are remote to a meeting where everyone else is local. It’s not the same.

Anyway I’m not opposed to remote work, I prefer it in many ways, but the interactions are fewer and less engaging for many people.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

It’s just not the same thing though. Sure, you can contact someone on Teams or Zoom and have that conversation, but the organic conversation in the office and then someone else jumping in and offering an idea or thought just isn’t happening the same way.

And the the Slack/Teams/WhatsApp messaging doesn’t replace human interaction either. We all know that in-person communication is totally different from text communication and conversation. I think it’s naive to assume that this doesn’t make a difference when you’re talking about business or related issues.

It’s not the same but it doesn’t really matter because you can accomplish the same benefits and outcomes.

If there’s something you value in in-person office situations, you can effectively accomplish that fully remote with the right tools and effort (you can even microwave fish for lunch if it’s that important to you). You have to want to learn that way of doing things, so it’s hard if you’re the “it’s hard and it’s different and it’ll never be as good” type of personality, but nothing you’re describing can’t be achieved remotely.

Originally Posted by edslunch

Good points, but you’ve highlighted the problem. Someone who is good at remote work and has the right tools has no issues at all, until they’re on a remote meeting with a group of people who aren’t and don’t. Or are remote to a meeting where everyone else is local. It’s not the same.

Anyway I’m not opposed to remote work, I prefer it in many ways, but the interactions are fewer and less engaging for many people.

I’m not denying your experience, I’m just highlighting the fact that the issues, difficulties, and drawbacks mentioned can all be effectively remedied and learned out.

Nobody starts their first job totally in tune with how that work environment operates and completely comfortable jumping right in. So it’s understandable that changing a work environment would trigger similar discomforts.

People just can’t be a stick in the mud and say “it just isn’t the same and doesn’t work.” It can, it just takes some effort and learning.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s not the same but it doesn’t really matter because you can accomplish the same benefits and outcomes.

If there’s something you value in in-person office situations, you can effectively accomplish that fully remote with the right tools and effort (you can even microwave fish for lunch if it’s that important to you). You have to want to learn that way of doing things, so it’s hard if you’re the “it’s hard and it’s different and it’ll never be as good” type of personality, but nothing you’re describing can’t be achieved remotely.



I’m not denying your experience, I’m just highlighting the fact that the issues, difficulties, and drawbacks mentioned can all be effectively remedied and learned out.

Nobody starts their first job totally in tune with how that work environment operates and completely comfortable jumping right in. So it’s understandable that changing a work environment would trigger similar discomforts.

People just can’t be a stick in the mud and say “it just isn’t the same and doesn’t work.” It can, it just takes some effort and learning.

I think you’re overstating our positions. Remote work is good for individual productivity. I know I was happy to miss many those in the office distractions. But there are many people, particularly in tech, you don’t have great communication skills and would be happy to basically never talk to anybody. It’s hard to get them engaged in the office but remotely is even harder. I’m not arguing guests from work, but it should be coupled with frequent face-to-face IMO

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I mean… you can have a preference. But there is absolutely a suitable replacement for a whiteboard in a meeting. Most meetings I am in people are sketching ideas/changes in BlueBeam on a shared screen… it’s the exact same thing. Not being used to it? Sure, that’s a thing. But the same need can be met easily.

I’m sure that’s true, but a corporate environment limited to a locked Teams isn’t all that

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I’m sure that’s true, but a corporate environment limited to a locked Teams isn’t all that

I found that the MS environment had the tools to make it work. MS Whiteboard and a touch screen laptop worked well for being able to have those office whiteboard experiences and you can save the file which is better than taking a picture of the physical whiteboard before erasing it. No smartboard required.

And if you get into a conversation where you know someone not on the call could contribute, you could simply ping them quick and add them to the call for a short input.

Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But with a little practice it actually works really well for that experience (and Microsoft actually put in some work to update the app and make it better). OneNote also works well once you get used to it.

I do like being in the office for the social exchanges but that is really the kind of thing that could happen once per week or a couple of times per month.

No one should use whatsapp for work. That is a crazy security risk.

[iggy_oi]

So is the consensus that work from home is practical in some situations but not in others and that people’s opinions on it as well as their arguments for/against it are largely based on their own personal preferences or first hand experiences with it rather than its economic viability?

[afc wimbledon]

Ironically one of the things I like about online meetings is how much more focused and effective they are, pre covid social service in person meetings generally were rambling and unfocused, there was always someone missing due to being sick or dealing with a crisis and you always needed their input to come up with a plan, what I like about on line is everyone is always there, if a team member is sick or out on the road they will generally 'drop in' via cell phone to see if they are needed, what I don't like is online meetings tend to be larger, there are always 2 or 3 people there who say nothing and aren't needed at all, a kids school liaison or employment services worker, if the meeting doesn't cover their particular area they just waste 20 or 30 minutes

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I do like being in the office for the social exchanges but that is really the kind of thing that could happen once per week or a couple of times per month.

I’ve found going for lunches or drinks even every couple weeks accomplishes more social bonding than weeks of benign office interactions.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Ironically one of the things I like about online meetings is how much more focused and effective they are, pre covid social service in person meetings generally were rambling and unfocused, there was always someone missing due to being sick or dealing with a crisis and you always needed their input to come up with a plan, what I like about on line is everyone is always there, if a team member is sick or out on the road they will generally 'drop in' via cell phone to see if they are needed, what I don't like is online meetings tend to be larger, there are always 2 or 3 people there who say nothing and aren't needed at all, a kids school liaison or employment services worker, if the meeting doesn't cover their particular area they just waste 20 or 30 minutes

I've found the vast majority of people just cameras off and either work on something else or not work at all. Then you go "oh X person you're on mute" X person after 30 seconds: "oh yeah sorry I missed that, could you repeat the question?"

Everyone knows that X was just not listening at all but it's become part of the etiquette to just acknowledge that it's the reality and keep the meeting going rather than call out the person.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So is the consensus that work from home is practical in some situations but not in others and that people’s opinions on it as well as their arguments for/against it are largely based on their own personal preferences or first hand experiences with it rather than its economic viability?

Ya, the economics of being back in the office is typically worse for everyone except the supporting businesses that rely on office workers being in the office, going for walks and paying for their goods & services.

- The workers lose out by having to commute, which has costs like gas, parking, transit passes, etc
- The workers also lose out by wanting to buy coffee, lunch, snacks
- The employers need to pay for more office space to have everyone in the office
- The employers also lose worker productivity as many employees will work less because they need to commute

But those businesses that benefit from having workers in the office are very happy to have the customers back. That is why those businesses get together, create a "Downtown Association", and then go lobby the CEOs of big companies who have office spaces downtown and convince / bribe the CEO to bring their workers back to the office full time.

The CEO tries to say it is about "culture" or whatever but it is really just a decision to help out the other businesses downtown that lobbied them.

The terrible managers love it because then they can go back to being attendance police instead of trying to figure out how to be a useful or decent manager.