Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm not sure. There seems to be an inconsistency between these two positions:

"This job can be done fully remote, productivity is not a problem at all"

and

"You could never outsource this job to cheaper labour overseas successfully, it has to be done here"

I know a few people who hold both of those positions tightly, and aside from maybe racism I can't see a worldview where that's internally consistent.

If you can do your job from your house in Calgary why can't someone do it from Alabama or India for less money?

It has nothing to do with racism, it is because there is an inherent mismatch where a business takes advantage of a country by operating in it, taking advantage of tax regimes, geopolitical steadiness, access to trade, or whatever other advantage it can receive, but is not giving back to the population of the country who are inherently the ones allowing its existence.

It is the same thought process for companies who do everything to dodge paying tax. They want all of the advantages of the safety of a well funded emergency services sector, strong infrastructure, judicial strength, lack of corruption, but are unwilling to pay the price for those things. Then when you combine that with a lack of employment for the local populace you are doubly denying the jurisdiction you work in the necessary funding to provide those advantages to you.

From a pure capitalist viewpoint it is maximizing profits and doing it's job. As a very real part of society, these corporations are nothing but a leech on the country and the people that they rely on to provide them the ability to make profits.

[Geraldsh]

Part of my son’s team was outsourced to India. Now if he wants to speak directly to a worker he is on the phone at midnight.

[photon]

I have some of that except they're the ones that work really late to have a bit of overlap in the morning.

[TheKiprusoffResurrection]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

After being fully remote for a few years I've recently had to start going in 2 days a week and despite my best efforts, I cant get a fraction of the work I'd get done at home when I'm in office. And frankly, I dont really know how anyone could say any different if they put in an honest day of work wherever they're based.

I go I the office and it's constant distractions, needless meetings and all the usual suspects chatting with each other all day long. That's not even mentioning all the added stress and anxiety from having to commute in rush hour traffic, especially in the winter.

If you get more done in the office I'd suggest you need to buckle down a bit more at home. It's the slackers that have ruined WFH for everyone.

/rant

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by TheKiprusoffResurrection

If you get more done in the office I'd suggest you need to buckle down a bit more at home. It's the slackers that have ruined WFH for everyone.

/rant

No, it's idiot boomer upper management that has ruined WFH, every study done since covid has shown that most companies experienced increased productivity from it. But that doesn't matter to management, the only 2 reasons for forcing employees back to the office are because they don't "feel" like WFH works despite the data, or they're looking to do some easy layoffs by letting a chunk of their workforce quit after making them come back to the office

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

I think the other part of this that is forgotten is the way you manage staff and their tasks when they are at home if done well makes home workers far more productive, workers will tend to work longer and more productively than they would in an office, essentially studies show working from home tends to cause people to work in very productive bursts over 10 or 12 hours, they take way more breaks but happily work a longer day, this requires managers being really on top of giving staff clear discrete tasks that need to be completed, working from home is terrible if you manage the staff as if they are in an office

[TheKiprusoffResurrection]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

No, it's idiot boomer upper management that has ruined WFH, every study done since covid has shown that most companies experienced increased productivity from it. But that doesn't matter to management, the only 2 reasons for forcing employees back to the office are because they don't "feel" like WFH works despite the data, or they're looking to do some easy layoffs by letting a chunk of their workforce quit after making them come back to the office

Fair enough if that's what the studies say, I cant debate that. But I've had frank discussions with upper management at my company, including a close friend of mine who is part of that management team, and they're saying they see an uptick in production during the in-office time. If it was just random boomer management types saying it, I'd be doubtful, but I dont think my pal would lie to me. Maybe I'm naive.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

The great majority of people working from home use Teams or another app where your activity is monitored. At the three companies I've worked at in the last 6 years, Teams has taken over from email to become the main communications tools, and people expect you to respond to chats within minutes. If you do step away during the day to pick up a kid or run an errand, you group message everyone in your team so they know why you're away from your desk for half an hour or whatever. It would be pretty bold to just walk away for 2 or 3 hours in the middle of the day. So I doubt movie theatres packed at 2 pm with people who were supposed to be working from home was ever a thing.

However, I do agree that things like group cohesion and mentoring benefit from people coming into the office. Which is why hybrid is the best work model for many roles. The reason employers are imposing 4-5 day return to office mandates is because they don't really know how to measure productivity in a meaningful way besides hours at desk, and execs want to regain control now that the labour market has loosened.

Coming into the office is also a lot more appealing for execs and managers who have their own office and parking spot than for staff who take transit and work in an open area. And return to office mandates often mean cramming more rank and file workers into open areas and cube farms - which incidentally, are not great for the spontaneous collaboration and socializing that execs are using to justify return to office; it's considered a dick move to stand and chat to a co-worker while 14 other people within earshot are trying to work.

Edit: And as Hemi-Cuda noted, a lot of companies are using return to office mandates to shed payroll without paying severance - 5 per cent of staff quitting rather than returning to the office is a feature of the plan, not a bug. Of course they don't get to choose which 5 per cent they lose, so it's a risky strategy.

[afc wimbledon]

I should point out the obvious, the single richest most modern industry on earth, tech, is almost wholly work from home now, and not only that doesn't care where your home is either, I've got several kids in my life working for various tech firms, they are in Van' and Whistler, the companies they work for are in Japan and the US, their colleagues are spread all over N America, they never meet in person, they interviewed for the position online, their whole working lives are spent working via zoom and what's app

I suspect we vastly over rate the benefits of meetings and getting together from a productivity point of view, I suspect it is just managers my age struggling to cope with a wholly new work and supervision environment

[Fuzz]

Not just management. All sorts of resentful people, who, even though it has zero effect on them, insist on voicing and attempting to dictate to others how they should be permitted to work. There is no justification for their position. They just don't want others to have a better experience than they had, or have. It's the same petty bull#### that drives so much conflict these days, and giving it oxygen by responding with blanket back to office orders does no one any good. But it sure makes them FEEL good(for a brief moment), and that's all that really matters.

[Slava]

The studies on productivity for WFH are at least mixed. This study from Stanford suggests a 10% decline in productivity https://siepr.stanford.edu/publicati...g%20COVID%2D19

Others not that despite that kind of evidence workers themselves suggest they’re more productive at home. I would think that’s based on not having to commute and things of that nature.

In case I’m getting tagged as some boomer who’s just out of touch, I’ll say a few things about my business. I’m not a boomer, first of all, but I have employees who work from home, employees who are basically hybrid and employees in the office. So, while I think the productivity is better in the office (for collaborative and cohesive reasons), I also recognize that different people have different opinions and preferences. Personally, I prefer to work in an office outside my house.

For me, supervision and that kind of thing is a non-factor. I trust that people are working and don’t need to see them sitting in their desk. But, if I’m in the office and I ca. easily chat with a colleague about something, or bounce some ideas around, it definitely engenders trust. I think that’s pretty natural.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Slava

The studies on productivity for WFH are at least mixed. This study from Stanford suggests a 10% decline in productivity https://siepr.stanford.edu/publicati...g%20COVID%2D19

Others not that despite that kind of evidence workers themselves suggest they’re more productive at home. I would think that’s based on not having to commute and things of that nature.

In case I’m getting tagged as some boomer who’s just out of touch, I’ll say a few things about my business. I’m not a boomer, first of all, but I have employees who work from home, employees who are basically hybrid and employees in the office. So, while I think the productivity is better in the office (for collaborative and cohesive reasons), I also recognize that different people have different opinions and preferences. Personally, I prefer to work in an office outside my house.

For me, supervision and that kind of thing is a non-factor. I trust that people are working and don’t need to see them sitting in their desk. But, if I’m in the office and I ca. easily chat with a colleague about something, or bounce some ideas around, it definitely engenders trust. I think that’s pretty natural.

I think this is the problem, traditional management sees supervision as just being around, that you know your occasional walk through the office to take a piss keeps them on their toes so everyone will generally be working the 8 hours they're in the office, you hand out a task to the team at the start of the week and the staff will pretty much sort it out themselves after that, the issue with working from home isn't that people slack off (they will if they can) but that the management has to break down tasks into discrete tasks with a timescale and a clear expectation, the 10% loss in productivity is almost certainly due to crap management that hasn't adapted to the new work environment, wfh requires a massively different management, far more micro managing tasks while if you do that well 'traditional work supervision' becomes uneccersary

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I work partially from home.

In the past month I was working when our main office was closed for a delayed start due to weather twice.

I do some preliminary ary work to make my week easier on Sundays.

It's not uncommon for me to be picking away at stuff in the evening after the kids are gone to bed.

Do I sometimes take 90 seconds to throw the wash into the dryer? Sure.

Have I read files on the couch rather than my office chair? Yup.

There are advantages and disadvantages to working from home. I like my hybrid. I get the socal aspect of in person. There's no cabin fever when I head downtown. I love closing the office door, walking up the basement steps and being home. The 10 second commute is amazing.

[schteve_d]

Maybe a spinoff Working From Home thread is warranted?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think this is the problem, traditional management sees supervision as just being around, that you know your occasional walk through the office to take a piss keeps them on their toes so everyone will generally be working the 8 hours they're in the office, you hand out a task to the team at the start of the week and the staff will pretty much sort it out themselves after that, the issue with working from home isn't that people slack off (they will if they can) but that the management has to break down tasks into discrete tasks with a timescale and a clear expectation, the 10% loss in productivity is almost certainly due to crap management that hasn't adapted to the new work environment, wfh requires a massively different management, far more micro managing tasks while if you do that well 'traditional work supervision' becomes uneccersary

If the consequence of work from home is that you need better management to maintain the same productivity and more micro managing that means that work from home is less productive.

Good managers are rare. It is a very difficult job. Many management roles are also hybrid doer roles where the doing tasks ends up being prioritized over the managing tasks. The universal belief that managers are the problem with work from home failing is likely because the level of management skill required is higher than the available pool of management employees.

So if RTO improves productivity because managers perform better at maintaining productivity and assigning tasks then at the executive level that means in office adds value.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I suspect we vastly over rate the benefits of meetings and getting together from a productivity point of view, I suspect it is just managers my age struggling to cope with a wholly new work and supervision environment

Gen Z express the lowest rates of wanting to work fully remote. They recognize what's lacking socially and in their careers if they don't have face-to-face contact with colleagues.

https://www.gallup.com/workplace/692...lar-gen-z.aspx


Millennials raising families benefit the most from working from home.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Gen Z express the lowest rates of wanting to work fully remote. They recognize what's lacking socially and in their careers if they don't have face-to-face contact with colleagues.

https://www.gallup.com/workplace/692...lar-gen-z.aspx


Millennials raising families benefit the most from working from home.

And almost no one of this survey wants fully in office

[gallione11]

Originally Posted by photon

I have some of that except they're the ones that work really late to have a bit of overlap in the morning.

That's how it is in my company. India workers are expected to work 2:30 - 11pm local so there's time for collaboration in the morning if needed or meetings and what not. Some of them seem to keep crazy hours at times. I've had some DM me at what's 2-3am their time.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

But, if I’m in the office and I ca. easily chat with a colleague about something, or bounce some ideas around, it definitely engenders trust. I think that’s pretty natural.

You can do that remotely, too, FYI.

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by GGG

If the consequence of work from home is that you need better management to maintain the same productivity and more micro managing that means that work from home is less productive.

I don't think that is what he said, or is my experience. The management needs to adjust its management style to ensure that the work-from-home experience is working for everyone. It absolutely does not mean more micro management. It means clearly delineating tasks and ensuring they are completed properly. That can be, and is in hundreds of work settings, being done already. Peggy from HR and the boomer bosses are the ones that are the dicks. I know one of the companies I WFHed saved millions of dollars a year when they went to WFH. That buys a lot of production declines, except there were'nt any.