Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

KENNEDY: If Canada came to the US and said, 'We're going to 0 tariffs on the US, all of them are off,' would you and the president go to 0 tariffs and let Canadian companies and American companies compete on a level playing field?

BESSENT: Absolutely not

For those unfamiliar thats a R senator asking the Treasury secretary the Q

Hopefully our govt is watching

We should quote Bessent as the grounds for canceling the F35 order.

[White Out 403]

https://globalnews.ca/news/11654777/...-office-order/

So dumb. More traffic, money spent on buildings office space and equipment, so that the greedy chambers of commerce can have their members sell people 15 dollar sandwiches and 10 dollar bowls of soup.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

https://globalnews.ca/news/11654777/...-office-order/

So dumb. More traffic, money spent on buildings office space and equipment, so that the greedy chambers of commerce can have their members sell people 15 dollar sandwiches and 10 dollar bowls of soup.

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

When you don't have to take an hour for lunch, have long coffee breaks and chit chats around the office, buy fancy clothes, lose an hour or more commuting, and many other time drags working in an office involves, it makes sense people can be just as productive from home. Yes, some abuse it and don't do anything, but that's an individual situation that can be spotted and resolved with good management.


And no, it's not perfect and has drawbacks, like onboarding staff sucks for everyone. But the productivity issue is a bit of a lame excuse.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or, and I know that this is a crazy thought, maybe productivity with everyone working from home isn't as good? Weird how when the pandemic was an issue and everyone was working from home that all the movie theaters, shopping malls and golf courses were full at 2pm on a Thursday, and yet everyone claimed that they were getting the same amount of work accomplished.

I do think that some positions and jobs are completely fine without needing to be in the office. But there is also a segment where there is a value to having everyone together for some core hours to get things completed.

https://siepr.stanford.edu/publicati...e-working-home

Nope.

My own anecdotal data, which I know you probably won't accept, back when I worked for TELUS , I had a lot of friends in management. After a year from working from home, one showed me an internal report they did on productivity and sick time.

Productivity went up, sick time went down. Employee surveys were more positive.

[opendoor]

If someone has so little to do that they can regularly duck out of work to go to a movie or play golf, then they'd just be doing nothing in the office too. That's a management problem.

My brother works for for the federal government and most of his job is consulting with departments and offices across Western Canada and doing assessments and investigations. If he's part of this order, he'll be driving into a random office where none of his regular coworkers are so he can spend most of his time meeting virtually with people in other regions. What a waste of time and money.

[Blaster86]

I think almost every study to come out through COVID showed WFH had incredible productivity benefits for the company while also being a major improvement for Work-Life balance for the employee.


There is no real work related reason for ending WFH for roles that can do it.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If someone has so little to do that they can regularly duck out of work to go to a movie or play golf, then they'd just be doing nothing in the office too. That's a management problem.

My brother works for for the federal government and most of his job is consulting with departments and offices across Western Canada and doing assessments and investigations. If he's part of this order, he'll be driving into a random office where none of his regular coworkers are so he can spend most of his time meeting virtually with people in other regions. What a waste of time and money.

I occasionally go for around of disc golf, but I have the hour for that because I can get out of bed, grab a coffee, and start working. Not having to go to the office frees up loads of time, and none of that is work time. So you can use it for other things, like mental health activity breaks. Which improves productivity.

[TheIronMaiden]

I 100% prefer working in office, but also 100% think people who don't want to should not.

[woob]

I enjoy both. My work place is pretty lax about where you work from, so if I want to work from home here and there, I can. But I also enjoy going into the office, seeing my co-workers in person, etc. If companies struck a balance on this, I'm sure the results in productivity and employee satisfaction would reflect that.

And agreed, some roles make zero sense to be office based. Support those people in ensuring they have a good work space in their home, and move on.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by woob

And agreed, some roles make zero sense to be office based. Support those people in ensuring they have a good work space in their home, and move on.

Be careful of what you wish for. I know of some people in Boston that stayed full remote after the pandemic. All happy and living the life. Then they were all "right sized" about a year and half ago, and their remote support work is now being done in Alabama at a much lower rate.

[MonaTone]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

Be careful of what you wish for. I know of some people in Boston that stayed full remote after the pandemic. All happy and living the life. Then they were all "right sized" about a year and half ago, and their remote support work is now being done in Alabama at a much lower rate.

Sounds like it would have happened anyways once an MBA brain got the idea to move those jobs somewhere cheaper to save money. Office or not.

Like many of the RTO mandates at major companies are just ploys to get folks to resign before they issue layoffs.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by MonaTone

Sounds like it would have happened anyways once an MBA brain got the idea to move those jobs somewhere cheaper to save money. Office or not.

I think in this instance, instead of the MBA wondering if the work that was being done in the office prior to the pandemic could be done fully remotely, the workers removed any doubt and made it an easy decision.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

I think in this instance, instead of the MBA wondering if the work that was being done in the office prior to the pandemic could be done fully remotely, the workers removed any doubt and made it an easy decision.

Management is always looking at how to do these things. Outsourcing. Remote Outsourcing. Automation. This isn't a new concept, it is just new to a pile of jobs that previously were not considered to be viable.

The pitfall of the idea is that quality quickly craters and then the big brainwave that the next manager will have will be to insource the positions.

I think the biggest problem with Hybrid is that it takes competent management and leadership. Since many mangers are terrible and can only act as attendance police they need people in the office so they can walk around and see who has their butt in their seat.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

I think in this instance, instead of the MBA wondering if the work that was being done in the office prior to the pandemic could be done fully remotely, the workers removed any doubt and made it an easy decision.

Very different than the mountain of layoffs experienced everywhere else almost daily at this point.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Management is always looking at how to do these things. Outsourcing. Remote Outsourcing. Automation. This isn't a new concept, it is just new to a pile of jobs that previously were not considered to be viable.

The pitfall of the idea is that quality quickly craters and then the big brainwave that the next manager will have will be to insource the positions.

I think the biggest problem with Hybrid is that it takes competent management and leadership. Since many mangers are terrible and can only act as attendance police they need people in the office so they can walk around and see who has their butt in their seat.

I'm not sure. There seems to be an inconsistency between these two positions:

"This job can be done fully remote, productivity is not a problem at all"

and

"You could never outsource this job to cheaper labour overseas successfully, it has to be done here"

I know a few people who hold both of those positions tightly, and aside from maybe racism I can't see a worldview where that's internally consistent.

If you can do your job from your house in Calgary why can't someone do it from Alabama or India for less money?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm not sure. There seems to be an inconsistency between these two positions:

"This job can be done fully remote, productivity is not a problem at all"

and

"You could never outsource this job to cheaper labour overseas successfully, it has to be done here"

I know a few people who hold both of those positions tightly, and aside from maybe racism I can't see a worldview where that's internally consistent.

If you can do your job from your house in Calgary why can't someone do it from Alabama or India for less money?

I said hybrid. I think that even in remote jobs there should be emphasis on having some face to face meetings, even if it is just quarterly or annually.

Also, I did not say that the external remote resource couldn't do the job, I said that quality craters, which is true. Even when you get a good external resource they often won't stick around because they are good and once they get a better offer they will move on and you will then get a new external resource that is unlikely to be as good.

Having said that, having a local expert insourced in the company and working remote is not really comparable to an outsourced resource working in some far flung place where the only thing holding them accountable is their SLA penalties. In almost every case, the internal expert is vastly superior to the external low cost alternative.

Also, I think a major consideration is the work that needs doing. Canadian government jobs should only go to Canadians. I think that should be a given. But then do you really need everyone to be in Ottawa? I do not think so. Most of the paper pushing jobs can be handled hybrid / remotely which means you can look for the best candidates throughout the country instead of just in the Ottawa region. Then plan your annual team building and performance review face-to-face weeks.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I said hybrid. I think that even in remote jobs there should be emphasis on having some face to face meetings, even if it is just quarterly or annually.

Also, I did not say that the external remote resource couldn't do the job, I said that quality craters, which is true. Even when you get a good external resource they often won't stick around because they are good and once they get a better offer they will move on and you will then get a new external resource that is unlikely to be as good.

Having said that, having a local expert insourced in the company and working remote is not really comparable to an outsourced resource working in some far flung place where the only thing holding them accountable is their SLA penalties. In almost every case, the internal expert is vastly superior to the external low cost alternative.

Also, I think a major consideration is the work that needs doing. Canadian government jobs should only go to Canadians. I think that should be a given. But then do you really need everyone to be in Ottawa? I do not think so. Most of the paper pushing jobs can be handled hybrid / remotely which means you can look for the best candidates throughout the country instead of just in the Ottawa region. Then plan your annual team building and performance review face-to-face weeks.

You don't have to outsource to hire overseas. One of my vendors stood up a whole team of customer service in the Phillipines. They're direct employees, and since they pay more than local employers they have had low turnover. I think quality went up - they were struggling to get good people in the US, but the same wages in the Phillipines gets a top tier person.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Also, I think a major consideration is the work that needs doing. Canadian government jobs should only go to Canadians. I think that should be a given. But then do you really need everyone to be in Ottawa? I do not think so. Most of the paper pushing jobs can be handled hybrid / remotely which means you can look for the best candidates throughout the country instead of just in the Ottawa region. Then plan your annual team building and performance review face-to-face weeks.

This is only true to the extent that the business is set up to work in a modern environment and the government is not always the type of organization that is on the leading edge of technology, modernization or has a strong affinity towards modernization their infrastructure and software. Look at the passport crisis that happened during COVID which was a result of the application system being primarily based on paper. There are large numbers of employees who took the paper application forms and transposed the data into the government systems for processing. The government is really the last bastion where paper files and processes are still a backbone for day to day operations.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

You don't have to outsource to hire overseas. One of my vendors stood up a whole team of customer service in the Phillipines. They're direct employees, and since they pay more than local employers they have had low turnover. I think quality went up - they were struggling to get good people in the US, but the same wages in the Phillipines gets a top tier person.

Cool.

It doesn't really change anything in what I said but I am glad your vendor is the exception to the rule. I have seen many examples go the other way.

Also, the Canadian government shouldn't be hiring foreign workers. Period.

But it sounds like they should get better managers who can handle leading remote/hyrbrid teams.