[PGT] Predators defeat Flames 5-1, Dec. 2nd

[FBI]

I personally don’t think we will be worse in 2 years AT ALL. as we know the flames are allergic to giving the young guys an extended look but when it DOES happen it can be great. (See Kuznetsov, he gets a chance and absolutely no difference between him and Hanley,Bean,Pachal etc) except he is younger and better. Now let’s apply that with some other guys. For example i think Farabee will simply replace Coleman.

Our new top draft guys will easily replace our fodder like Shark, Beecher, etc.
our young guys won’t replace Kadri right away but will build towards that. I think 2027/2028 is going to be exciting. New arena, lots of young guys that will be super pumped to play.

Just gotta endure this year and next and I think after that it’s going to be exciting to be a flames fan again.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s surprising to me how many fans really deeply underestimate this. It’s much easier if you’re one of those casual observers who can just check out for seasons at a time, but for the people who actually enjoys the wins and the progress and suffer the losses, oof.

Worth it in the end? You hope so. But that’s why it’s important to enjoy what little you can on the way, because you never really know.

it’s not hard to imagine a reality where Florida goes through all that and never wins a cup.

Panthers were also bad for like 20 years straight. They made the playoffs 3 times between 1998 and 2020 (and lost in the first round the 3 times they made it). Missed 10 years in a row at one point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FBI

I personally don’t think we will be worse in 2 years AT ALL. as we know the flames are allergic to giving the young guys an extended look but when it DOES happen it can be great. (See Kuznetsov, he gets a chance and absolutely no difference between him and Hanley,Bean,Pachal etc) except he is younger and better. Now let’s apply that with some other guys. For example i think Farabee will simply replace Coleman.

Our new top draft guys will easily replace our fodder like Shark, Beecher, etc.
our young guys won’t replace Kadri right away but will build towards that. I think 2027/2028 is going to be exciting. New arena, lots of young guys that will be super pumped to play.

Just gotta endure this year and next and I think after that it’s going to be exciting to be a flames fan again.

The Flames gave Honzek an extended look and he'd still be on the roster but for injury. I think Parekh would be as well. The pattern has been not to overdo it with kids on the roster. Every year there's been a couple who make it for extended periods: look at Ruzicka, and Pelletier one year, then Pospisil, Zary, Coronato and Pachal, then Klapka and Wolf, now Honzek and Kuz.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FBI

I personally don’t think we will be worse in 2 years AT ALL. as we know the flames are allergic to giving the young guys an extended look but when it DOES happen it can be great. (See Kuznetsov, he gets a chance and absolutely no difference between him and Hanley,Bean,Pachal etc) except he is younger and better. Now let’s apply that with some other guys. For example i think Farabee will simply replace Coleman.

Our new top draft guys will easily replace our fodder like Shark, Beecher, etc.
our young guys won’t replace Kadri right away but will build towards that. I think 2027/2028 is going to be exciting. New arena, lots of young guys that will be super pumped to play.

Just gotta endure this year and next and I think after that it’s going to be exciting to be a flames fan again.

So you're assumption on a young player getting promoted and finding his wings is that the team was holding him back, and not that they timed it right and developed him correctly?

Fun!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

All I know is the rebuild after Iggy, Kipper and Jaybo left was more fun that watching that old and tired team chasing 8th.

Draft anticipation, watching young Monahan develop, hitting on a 6th round diamond in the rough, Bennett, Tkachuk, et al, and they morphed into a team that we EXPECTED to win on a nightly basis.

This season will suck but Coronato is fun. Wolf is fun. Zayne is unknown but the anticipation is fun. The only crappy part is we should have started this rebuild when Johnny and Tkachuk pulled the chute. Better late than never I guess.

Oilers and Leafs fan forums are much more miserable places than CP these days. Losing sucks but there's more disappointment and misery in underachieving or realizing the team you thought was a cup contender in the offseason, simply isn't good enough.

Times have changed as to me this isn't the same as the Young Guns years as pre-salary cap era, as things were hopeless for small market fans and tanking wasn't a thing. Flames really didn't have a lot of hope to compete because they couldn't spend to keep or add free agents. In those days you had to get a copy of THN to see what the up and coming prospects were and there wasn't the excitement there is now for the draft. It's much easier now as while the team stinks you can spend the season tracking the top prospects, and discuss trade's etc. Now at least we have hope balance the fact that the product isn't that good.

[FBI]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So you're assumption on a young player getting promoted and finding his wings is that the team was holding him back, and not that they timed it right and developed him correctly?

Fun!

I guess you can look at it like they timed it perfectly with Kuznetsov but I think it was also a bit of a fluke (since they put him on waivers), so my opinion is he should have been tried a lot earlier... But anyway that wasn't the point, my point is I personally think some of your young guys can step in and easily replace what the older guys bring.

I also think Brzu will replace the Hanleys and Beans of the world just like Kuznetsov did.

I'm pretty sure Gridin is going to easily replace what some of our guys bring when he comes in later this year or next year..

My point is that injection of youth has the possibility to make us BETTER not worse. Speed / passion / enthusiasm. Plus it brings up the excitement level of the fans, etc.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by FBI

I personally don’t think we will be worse in 2 years AT ALL. as we know the flames are allergic to giving the young guys an extended look but when it DOES happen it can be great. (See Kuznetsov, he gets a chance and absolutely no difference between him and Hanley,Bean,Pachal etc) except he is younger and better. Now let’s apply that with some other guys. For example i think Farabee will simply replace Coleman.

Our new top draft guys will easily replace our fodder like Shark, Beecher, etc.
our young guys won’t replace Kadri right away but will build towards that. I think 2027/2028 is going to be exciting. New arena, lots of young guys that will be super pumped to play.

Just gotta endure this year and next and I think after that it’s going to be exciting to be a flames fan again.

The ongoing resistance to handing the youth the keys that has carried over from coaching staff to coaching staff with this team is maddening.

Yup you have to play the right way, but also your threshold for mistakes can't be zero.

Players you have leaned on will reach and pass their best before date and you'll need to fill that role with a younger body at some point.

As you say, the rare time they do give young players an honest chance (usually due to injuries when there is no other choice) those players measure up to the players they are replacing and sometimes even surpass them.

This team has always played things a little too safe. Not just with line ups but it seems like in all areas. And they appear comfortable with the bubble of mediocrity its kept them in for decades.

Just fill enough seats and meet the quota i guess. Its kind of sad that there isnt more ambition radiating down from the very top. I guess that's in part why Murray ranks 31st of owners.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't even find it miserable to watch. I have it on in the background while I'm puttering around the house. Back in the days when wins and losses mattered, the losses kind of bummed me out for the rest of the evening, so it's nice to not have a care at all after games. Not saying I enjoy it, but I could probably handle several years of this as it's really not that bad. I still watch, but am less invested which isn't a bad thing when you are one of those people that probably invests too much time into professional sports.

I am in the same boat. I don't expect them to be good this year, so I am not miserable when they aren't. I simply watch for different reasons, and take different things out of the game (mostly player development). I usually find myself hoping for goals while still hoping they somehow find a way to lose. But in the end, it doesn't really matter - they're a bad team and they're going to finish the season at, or near, the bottom of the standings, whether I watch or not. So I try to enjoy it.

I just don't get people who seem miserable while watching - you WANT the team to be bad, they ARE bad, and yet you're miserable every night, watching it. Just bizarre.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

As you say, the rare time they do give young players an honest chance (usually due to injuries when there is no other choice) those players measure up to the players they are replacing and sometimes even surpass them.

It hasn't really been that rare, you are just overrating prospects. They give kids a look every season and the ones that been worth a spot have held onto it. Off the top my head Soloyov, Pelletier, Philips, and Ruzicka all got extended looks and people were furious when the Flames got rid of them and not much has been missed. Bennett was probably the biggest mishandling they had but Treliving traded him just as he was settling into Sutter hockey.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

The ongoing resistance to handing the youth the keys that has carried over from coaching staff to coaching staff with this team is maddening.

Yup you have to play the right way, but also your threshold for mistakes can't be zero.

Players you have leaned on will reach and pass their best before date and you'll need to fill that role with a younger body at some point.

As you say, the rare time they do give young players an honest chance (usually due to injuries when there is no other choice) those players measure up to the players they are replacing and sometimes even surpass them.

This team has always played things a little too safe. Not just with line ups but it seems like in all areas. And they appear comfortable with the bubble of mediocrity its kept them in for decades.

Just fill enough seats and meet the quota i guess. Its kind of sad that there isnt more ambition radiating down from the very top. I guess that's in part why Murray ranks 31st of owners.

A team that started the season with two 19 year olds, had a 20 year old break in and take up a full time spot on the shut down line, and then moved a rookie defenseman into the top four has a resistance and isn't giving young players an honest chance?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

A team that started the season with two 19 year olds, had a 20 year old break in and take up a full time spot on the shut down line, and then moved a rookie defenseman into the top four has a resistance and isn't giving young players an honest chance?

There are a few clichés around the Flames that no matter how many times you address them or correct them, the same people (even if they acknowledge your correction) will just keep going back to the same well.

In reality plenty of young players have been given opportunities to shine. The ones that earned a permanent spot in the lineup are in it and the ones that didn’t or haven’t, aren’t.

A 23 year old who made the club at 21 is playing on the top line. Another 23 year old rookie is a top 4 D. The starting goaltender is 24. The only reason the 21 and 19 year old rookies aren’t playing is because of injury. etc etc.

The Flames are one of the 10 youngest teams in the NHL and will probably fall into the top 5 once Kadri/Coleman/Andersson are moved. The “they don’t play young players” narrative is just lazy.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

It's like that joke with the punchline "...but you f*&^ one goat....". In this case the goat is Bennett. Or St. Louis depending on generation.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

"Look there's some youth, therefore your opinion is totally invalid."

Well the argument isnt about the non-existence of young players, its about this ever persisting proclivity of the team to lean on its vets to an inordinate degree regardless of performance before giving similar opportunities to their younger counterparts.

2 weeks of Gridin, Honzek, Parekh and Kuznetsov (after taking the roundabout way of sending him down when he was ready on day 1 only to stumble into the that realization through forcing worse more experienced alternatives for far too long when the answer was under their noses) is a pretty meager contingent of youth for a team in an unofficial rebuild.

Zary and Coronato have been around a couple of seasons now so they aren't in the recent promotions category any more.

That Kuznetsov promotion could have happened a lot sooner and it required Miro and Bean fumbling their opportunities and some injuries to pave the way for it to happen.

The point is rookies cracking the big team should not be this arduous and lengthy of a process, especially considering the current state of the organization.

Hopefully moving a couple of bodies and solidifying themselves as a bottom 3 team fixes this issue, but we will have to see.

[dino7c]

It should be hard to make an NHL team for a young player

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by dino7c

It should be hard to make an NHL team for a young player

Yes, it should. And your team should be able to identify pretty quickly when you're playing well enough to be selected over Danil Miromanov for their roster and not just go back to Danil Miromanov because.

Equal opportunity, not freebies.

Why is this hard to grasp?

[Strange Brew]

Average age of roster isn't a great metric but at least it is out there to discuss. According to elite prospects, Flames are 23rd oldest in a 32 team league. And maybe more relevant, 28th in terms of playing experience. So they are definitely giving newer guys a chance.

It's interesting IMO, there are three outliers in terms of being young and inexperienced. Buffalo, Chicago and Montreal.

It is pretty wild though to look at this team now and realize they exposed Kuznetsov to waivers only a couple of months ago, who is now playing in your top 4 every game. While Miromanov stayed on the team.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

"Look there's some youth, therefore your opinion is totally invalid."

Well the argument isnt about the non-existence of young players, its about this ever persisting proclivity of the team to lean on its vets to an inordinate degree regardless of performance before giving similar opportunities to their younger counterparts.

…

The point is rookies cracking the big team should not be this arduous and lengthy of a process, especially considering the current state of the organization.

The Flames have 3 rookies who have played more than 10 games this year. Only Chicago has more (4).

The Flames also have 5 rookies who have appeared in games this year. Only Carolina, Chicago, NYR, Pittsburgh, and San Jose have more, and all of those teams have dealt with more significant injuries.

Seems like one the easiest spots in the league for a rookie to crack the lineup. How much less arduous would you like it to be? The very easiest? Just play rookies regardless of whether they earn it or not?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Average age of roster isn't a great metric but at least it is out there to discuss. According to elite prospects, Flames are 23rd oldest in a 32 team league. And maybe more relevant, 28th in terms of playing experience. So they are definitely giving newer guys a chance.

It's interesting IMO, there are three outliers in terms of being young and inexperienced. Buffalo, Chicago and Montreal.

It is pretty wild though to look at this team now and realize they exposed Kuznetsov to waivers only a couple of months ago, who is now playing in your top 4 every game. While Miromanov stayed on the team.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Yep. I believe Darryl wanted Toskala and settled for Kipper

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by dino7c

It should be hard to make an NHL team for a young player

Nonononononono!! Everyone gets Participation Medals these days...don't want to make them feel disrespected or not good enough...c'mon!


So every kid that shows up should get to play 10 games just to see how bad they are before they get sent back down, because fans are a FAR better judge of ability than the actual PROS running things. Especially when they're judging kids who've never played an NHL game.

[Monahammer]

Who is the best rookie playing on the roster now?

I posit that the best one currently playing was one they were willing to waive and potentially lose at the beginning of the year, so that we could play Joel Hanley/Jake Bean.

IMO this invalidates the notion that the flames are giving reasonable chances to young players. Parekh is another great example; they were basically forced to keep him because of AHL rules, but they stapled his ass to the bench and played him with pylons while telling him not to play like himself.

The third one is Honzek, who I am still not sold on as an nhl regular.