Flames President John Bean: “I’m not ever allowed to use the word ‘rebuild’" That in itself is all you really need to know about why the organization has been run the way it has for the past two decades.
There's different types of meddling. I don't think Edwards is the type of meddler that's highly involved in the drafting process or free agency. He's the dollars and cents bottom line type of meddler. How often do the Flames ever eat salary on a trade compared to other teams when trading players for picks prospects? We all know about the days where Treliving couldn't complete deadline trades because he had to get them authorized by King. He's a rich guy that's tight with his money and they don't typically make for championship winning owners. I would think most Flames fans can realize he's only begrudgingly letting a rebuild happen because; a) the team is no longer good enough because players like Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hannifin, and soon Andersson were/are leaving regardless of the Flames attempting to retain them & b) he's got that shiny new arena on the horizon so he's willing to accept some short term pain for the first time since he's become owner. You can bet once the arena opens this won't likely be something that happens again.
Lets not forget the recent Conroy contract extension fiasco that was somehow hidden from the public because the guy was worried about perception? Like what owner does that?
To me that's controlling messaging, but not necessarily controlling hockey operations.
And was the King thing a King rule or an Edwards rule? We haven't heard it since so maybe King?
Look I'm not defending the guy ... I just haven't seen anything concrete like ever to suggest he's worse than owners in other cities.
Exactly. You never hear from him. at this point he is a 8 foot tall monster that shoots fireballs at of his arse.
That's by design. The Jerry Jones, Mark Cubans, Woody Johnsons, of the sports world are not the norm. The majority of these rich folks keep a low profile for security and privacy reasons and hire presidents to be their meat shields. Ken King was long getting ridiculed by Calgarians for Calgary Next and other things while acting on behalf of Edwards.
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Flames President John Bean: “I’m not ever allowed to use the word ‘rebuild’" That in itself is all you really need to know about why the organization has been run the way it has for the past two decades.
There's different types of meddling. I don't think Edwards is the type of meddler that's highly involved in the drafting process or free agency. He's the dollars and cents bottom line type of meddler. How often do the Flames ever eat salary on a trade compared to other teams when trading players for picks prospects? We all know about the days where Treliving couldn't complete deadline trades because he had to get them authorized by King. He's a rich guy that's tight with his money and they don't typically make for championship winning owners. I would think most Flames fans can realize he's only begrudgingly letting a rebuild happen because; a) the team is no longer good enough because players like Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hannifin, and soon Andersson were/are leaving regardless of the Flames attempting to retain them & b) he's got that shiny new arena on the horizon so he's willing to accept some short term pain for the first time since he's become owner. You can bet once the arena opens this won't likely be something that happens again.
Lets not forget the recent Conroy contract extension fiasco that was somehow hidden from the public because the guy was worried about perception? Like what owner does that?
So all you can point to is that Edwards meddles in how the messaging goes.
So all you can point to is that Edwards meddles in how the messaging goes.
He sure ain’t meddling in a way to try to get returns on trades that allow them to win now. Seems like every trade is an attempt to win in the future and actually hurts the teams ability to win now.
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So all you can point to is that Edwards meddles in how the messaging goes.
He is the source of the messages. Being opposed to a rebuild isn't meddling. It's an owner's operating philosophy that he has his employees carry out. Like I said before he's not meddling in the sense that he's influencing personnel or draft picks. He's simply running the team as a bottom line company and has been unwilling to sacrifice seasons for a rebuild despite that being a requirement of building a cup contender. You seem fixated on the term "meddling" where I simply consider him a bad owner from a fan's point of view.
The guy is such a goof even when the team has been forced into a rebuild, he's ensuring that employees don't admit it. He's terrified of reality of the situation coming out of the words of the organization because he's terrified it will upset some paying fans. Still he does dumb things like hide the Conroy extension and throw Maloney into the spotlight which blows up in the face of the organization. Good owners don't do these kinds of things.
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He is the source of the messages. Being opposed to a rebuild isn't meddling. It's an owner's operating philosophy that he has his employees carry out. Like I said before he's not meddling in the sense that he's influencing personnel or draft picks. He's simply running the team as a bottom line company and has been unwilling to sacrifice seasons for a rebuild despite that being a requirement of building a cup contender. You seem fixated on the term "meddling" where I simply consider him a bad owner from a fan's point of view.
The guy is such a goof even when the team has been forced into a rebuild, he's ensuring that employees don't admit it. He's terrified of reality of the situation coming out of the words of the organization because he's terrified it will upset some paying fans. Still he does dumb things like hide the Conroy extension and throw Maloney into the spotlight which blows up in the face of the organization. Good owners don't do these kinds of things.
Well in fairness I don’t think any teams use the word rebuild. The New Yorks Rangers never mentioned the word once in their supposed transparent letter that said they were doing that. Not even sure there is any evidence that he is against a rebuild either.
He is the source of the messages. Being opposed to a rebuild isn't meddling. It's an owner's operating philosophy that he has his employees carry out. Like I said before he's not meddling in the sense that he's influencing personnel or draft picks. He's simply running the team as a bottom line company and has been unwilling to sacrifice seasons for a rebuild despite that being a requirement of building a cup contender. You seem fixated on the term "meddling" where I simply consider him a bad owner from a fan's point of view.
The guy is such a goof even when the team has been forced into a rebuild, he's ensuring that employees don't admit it. He's terrified of reality of the situation coming out of the words of the organization because he's terrified it will upset some paying fans. Still he does dumb things like hide the Conroy extension and throw Maloney into the spotlight which blows up in the face of the organization. Good owners don't do these kinds of things.
Right ... but they are rebuilding and he's either allowed it or isn't paying attention.
I hate the messaging stuff, but he's allowed his GM to not add to the team in 2+ years, move UFAs and non UFAs for futures, not spend to the cap, and draft more than they've ever drafted in the first three rounds in the last three years.
He is the source of the messages. Being opposed to a rebuild isn't meddling. It's an owner's operating philosophy that he has his employees carry out. Like I said before he's not meddling in the sense that he's influencing personnel or draft picks. He's simply running the team as a bottom line company and has been unwilling to sacrifice seasons for a rebuild despite that being a requirement of building a cup contender. You seem fixated on the term "meddling" where I simply consider him a bad owner from a fan's point of view.
The guy is such a goof even when the team has been forced into a rebuild, he's ensuring that employees don't admit it. He's terrified of reality of the situation coming out of the words of the organization because he's terrified it will upset some paying fans. Still he does dumb things like hide the Conroy extension and throw Maloney into the spotlight which blows up in the face of the organization. Good owners don't do these kinds of things.
Imagine an owner worrying about silly things like ticket sales.
it really doesn't matter if it's called a rebuild, a retool or a rebiggle. Actions speak louder than words, and Conroy's trade history paints a pretty clear picture. The biggest criticism I have is that they are simply not upfront to their fan base because they are seemingly scared of the blowback. Now we get this weird kabuki theater where they pretend they're not rebuilding when, in fact, that's exactly what they've been doing.
I think this is one of those disagreements, 'cause not everyone thinks the picture is very clear.
To me it looks more like the team has either been on a waiting pattern to prepare the ground until they find the right time to properly commit to a rebuild (I hope so), or they lack the courage or permission from ownership to actually commit (which is what I'm afraid of).
Either way, to me the actions have looked a little half-hearted, and I'm not sure there is a real strategy guiding the actions.
What owner WANTS a rebuild? There exactly zero owners in the NHL that want a rebuild.
Now go look at the ages of many owners (including some of the ones here in Calgary), and tell me that they should so easily accept a 5 year rebuild. Pretty tough to do, right?
Calgary is rebuilding. I believe the owners are all wise and experienced enough to understand that sports are cyclical in nature - at least sports with a draft anyway. Rules change for European Football, as it is all about scouting young players and building up their academies for the most part. Hockey is a cyclical sport, however. We are talking about people who have built multi-million (and billion) dollar companies.
I am fairly confident that they don't base their entire plans on ensuring that the Flames get 2 playoff games every season and "that's all they care about". Seriously? Even if this was true, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they simply would prefer a Cup winner - or at least a finalist - if playoff revenue was all it was?
I just find a lot of the arguments being made about the owners all fall back to the same thing: We have to assume that the owners are all morons to make most of these arguments work. That's where it all falls apart for me personally. I just doubt that they are.
Here is another argument to chew over:
Lots of arguments came up when Feaster was here, and one of them was that Feaster "wasn't a hockey guy". By the time he arrived in Calgary, he had already been involved in hockey for 20 or 30 years, no? Or is he not a hockey guy because he never played. At what point do the owners become an "experienced ownership group"? Sounds like Murray Edwards is much more involved in league-wide matters than most owners are, so I would contest that he is much more a 'hockey guy' than most owners by now.
I don't know what the owners do or don't do when it comes to the Flames. I just find a lot of the arguments being made to be rather lazy and reliant on the assumption that the owners are all idiots for the most part. That's why I always ask for any direct evidence of an owner doing this or that, and how it has impacted the Flames (even with hindsight).
Heck, the only thing that I knew for sure was that one of the owners made the statement: "What about Darryl Sutter?" when the Treliving fired Gulutzan. Maybe he wasn't available, maybe he would have made himself available - point is, that was a better fricken option than Bill Peters with hindsight, right?
Point is, I would love to hear about concrete examples of why the owners suck. Everything I have heard and read is really vague.
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Well, I just hope Flames Ownership commit to a complete re-build (sounds like they are forced to) and not half-ass it. Give GM Conroy whatever he needs and let him be.
Well, I just hope Flames Ownership commit to a complete re-build (sounds like they are forced to) and not half-ass it. Give GM Conroy whatever he needs and let him be.
I asked AI to build this list so could be somewhat incomplete, But I kinda think they might be rebuilding. There is half of a good NHL team out, and by the end of the season we will probably be to 3/4 of a good team out in just 3 years. While acquiring 5 additional top 64 picks, a bringing 1 player, 1 single player over the age of 25, who was shipped out within a year for younger players.
Assets Out (Traded from Flames)
Tyler Toffoli
Elias Lindholm
Andrew Mangiapane
Jakob Pelletier
Andrei Kuzmenko (acquired, then traded)
Emilio Pettersen (AHL F)
Nikita Zadorov
Chris Tanev
Noah Hanifin
Jacob Markstrom
2024 5th-round pick
2025 2nd-round pick
2026 7th-round pick
2028 7th-round pick
Assets In (Acquired by Flames)
Yegor Sharangovich
Andrei Kuzmenko (later traded)
Riley Damiani
Morgan Frost
Joel Farabee
Daniil Miromanov
Artem Grushnikov
Nikita Okhotiuk
Kevin Bahl
Hunter Brzustewicz (D prospect)
Joni Jurmo (D prospect)
Cole Brady (G prospect, acquired/traded in Tanev deal)
I asked AI to build this list so could be somewhat incomplete, But I kinda think they might be rebuilding. There is half of a good NHL team out, and by the end of the season we will probably be to 3/4 of a good team out in just 3 years. While acquiring 5 additional top 64 picks, a bringing 1 player, 1 single player over the age of 25, who was shipped out within a year for younger players.
Assets Out (Traded from Flames)
Tyler Toffoli
Elias Lindholm
Andrew Mangiapane
Jakob Pelletier
Andrei Kuzmenko (acquired, then traded)
Emilio Pettersen (AHL F)
Nikita Zadorov
Chris Tanev
Noah Hanifin
Jacob Markstrom
2024 5th-round pick
2025 2nd-round pick
2026 7th-round pick
2028 7th-round pick
Assets In (Acquired by Flames)
Yegor Sharangovich
Andrei Kuzmenko (later traded)
Riley Damiani
Morgan Frost
Joel Farabee
Daniil Miromanov
Artem Grushnikov
Nikita Okhotiuk
Kevin Bahl
Hunter Brzustewicz (D prospect)
Joni Jurmo (D prospect)
Cole Brady (G prospect, acquired/traded in Tanev deal)
