Flames will not succeed with Murray Edwards

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I walked that back, corrected myself, apologized to Bingo and nobody else has stated as much.


Murray tho? Wish he'd spend to the cap with RCR. He hasn't made a capital investment with any of the 6 resorts, in what is it? F#%#ing ever.

Exception; Quebec splitting the $100m, with Murray to update the lifts at MSA. Poor guy needs government intervention whenever his two non-oil companies need facilities.

A common theme...Flames facilities have sunk to the bottom too...weird.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Every rebuild is a shade of grey isn't it?

I mean, I agree, they could be more aggressive about it, but at least the most horrifying things aren't happening ...

1) moving draft capital to get better now
2) spending to the cap to avoid sinking to the bottom

That's key to me.

I may do things differently if I had the keys, but at least they're not brain dead adding to stop the slide.

Drafting twice in the first round for at least three straight years is certainly positioning a team for the future.

You have articulated this in a way that I think 95% of the CP community would agree. Some people would like them to be a little more aggressive in the rebuild and are passionate about that. IMO that is the extent of the difference of the opinion on here for the most part.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You have articulated this in a way that I think 95% of the CP community would agree. Some people would like them to be a little more aggressive in the rebuild and are passionate about that. IMO that is the extent of the difference of the opinion on here for the most part.

Well some people refuse to beleive a rebuild is happening at all, and that the only reason any trades were made were because Conroy was “forced”.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

You can complain about Edwards all you want, but at the end the the day, he spends to the cap, and has ensured Flames are in Calgary long term (even if he had to bamboozle the city in to paying for part of the arena to do it).

What other Calgary billionaire do you see clamoring to be the white knight to save the Flames from Edward's evil grasp?

I dunno, maybe he can put the team up for sale and we can find out?

[Robbob]

Let's be honest, if the the team is sold to a tech billionaire, what are the chances they are hands off? The only time we hear about Edwards is when it is brought up by fans. He is like a wendigo where you don't see or hear from him. Just rumors and conversations passed through a few people. He has just become some Flames based boogeyman that people enjoy speculating on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Let's be honest, if the the team is sold to a tech billionaire, what are the chances they are hands off? The only time we hear about Edwards is when it is brought up by fans. He is like a wendigo where you don't see or hear from him. Just rumors and conversations passed through a few people. He has just become some Flames based boogeyman that people enjoy speculating on.

There have been worse owners for being hands on, and there are even now.

[Erick Estrada]

The Flames have been one of the least successful organizations under Edwards ownership when it comes to playoff success. Organizational failures that span decades are always indicative of poor ownership decision making. It's clear he's one of the worst owners in the NHL just as he was voted in that Athletic article as it's not a secret that he's a terrible owner. Everyone knows it, and as a fan it's a matter of dealing with it, and hoping that the organization can somehow have success in spite of him.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames have been one of the least successful organizations under Edwards ownership when it comes to playoff success. Organizational failures that span decades are always indicative of poor ownership decision making. It's clear he's one of the worst owners in the NHL just as he was voted in that Athletic article as it's not a secret that he's a terrible owner. Everyone knows it, and as a fan it's a matter of dealing with it, and hoping that the organization can somehow have success in spite of him.

His latest meddling insisting on a full rebuild and trading off assets for picks and prospects and doing nothing to improve the team in 3 years is really the cherry on the icing on the cake.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I walked that back, corrected myself, apologized to Bingo and nobody else has stated as much.


Murray tho? Wish he'd spend to the cap with RCR. He hasn't made a capital investment with any of the 6 resorts, in what is it? F#%#ing ever.

Exception; Quebec splitting the $100m, with Murray to update the lifts at MSA. Poor guy needs government intervention whenever his two non-oil companies need facilities.

He is doing no differently, as it happens, than an owner of an apartment building in many cases. Buy the building....collect rent...and. Let. It. Sit. Let the money roll in, spend only what you must and maximize profits.


You may not like it (I don't, and I don't take clients like this), but from a performance and income perspective...it works.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames have been one of the least successful organizations under Edwards ownership when it comes to playoff success. Organizational failures that span decades are always indicative of poor ownership decision making. It's clear he's one of the worst owners in the NHL just as he was voted in that Athletic article as it's not a secret that he's a terrible owner. Everyone knows it, and as a fan it's a matter of dealing with it, and hoping that the organization can somehow have success in spite of him.

Not being successful would mean his hockey ops have not been good because that is who runs things. I give you that maybe he had a hand in the whole Sutter part deux stuff, but I also see the Flames are trying different things.

In regards to the athletic article, I think that is kind of my point. That article the ownership is penalized for not spending to the cap. Why would we want this team spending to the cap? In fact, if it were spending to the cap that would lend more credence to the retool rather than rebuild. Going back to back at the cap floor in a rebuild is how you rebuild. Fans that voted the ownership down for that I think are voting down without merit.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I really wonder what things Edwards has meddled-in. What direction he forced the Flames to move in (or hasn't), what moves he kiboshed or has forced, etc., etc. It often feels like just a bogeyman that people will blame for poor decisions.

Lots of teams are not successful, especially in Canada. Is it REALLY Edwards pulling the strings in the background, insisting on certain things or timelines?

For instance, in the period at the tail-end of the Sutter tenure, Feaster was brought-in. Sutter was then axed, and Feaster took over - but he didn't rebuild, which surprised many. Then he started to rebuild after his famous "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" speech (even though he was fooled twice). Things under Feaster and Weisbrod deteriorated - the organization started becoming a bit of a laughing-stock, right? Burke was brought in to give stability (and bring back respectability) to the organization. He hired fired Feaster and Weisbrod, and eventually hired Treliving. Now, Burke was famous for saying that he doesn't believe in long-rebuilds. Maybe Edwards had absolutely nothing to do with the last rebuild, and it was a combination of Burke and Treliving that wanted a more aggressive pivot back to contending (or they simply misread the team at the time). Can we really say that Edwards was behind that drive out of the rebuild? I can't say that.

I am just really curious. There is a lot of finger pointing at the owners - particularly Edwards - but I don't see any concrete examples. The one that I remember somehow was how he stopped Treliving from trading for Bishop (or maybe he didn't stop it, but Treliving couldn't contact him in time to go ahead with the trade?). If I am an owner, I would like to know about moves in advance (I mean, honestly, wouldn't you? That's part of the fun of owning a team, no?).

I am hardly defending Edwards here - I am just honestly curious as to concrete examples. It just seems to me like people point at him for the ills of the team's lack of success over the last few decades often like miasma theory from the middle-ages. That's what it seems like to me, but maybe I am just not in the loop as others are.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well some people refuse to beleive a rebuild is happening at all, and that the only reason any trades were made were because Conroy was “forced”.

Some of that is semantics I suppose. Arguing what to call something.

He has at least two possible trade candidates with term left on their deals this year. Let's see what he does.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

His latest meddling insisting on a full rebuild and trading off assets for picks and prospects and doing nothing to improve the team in 3 years is really the cherry on the icing on the cake.

Are you somehow trying to make an argument he's not been one of the reasons the Flames have advanced past the first round only 3 times and never further over the past 20 years? Insisting on a rebuild? Please!

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are you somehow trying to make an argument he's not been one of the reasons the Flames have advanced past the first round only 3 times and never further over the past 20 years? Insisting on a rebuild? Please!

It is strange that Edwards is even allowing this massive rebuild under Conroy. It is strange that he allowed Treliving before him to trade off a lot of future assets to try to win now.

His meddling must change depending on who the GM is. An alternative theory is that he hires the GM (those decisions can easily be questioned) and then lets them implement whatever their plan is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are you somehow trying to make an argument he's not been one of the reasons the Flames have advanced past the first round only 3 times and never further over the past 20 years? Insisting on a rebuild? Please!

If he’ a reason you’d think there’s be evidence of it. But moreover, the Flames have had similar lack of success to a lot of teams over that period. The Jets have made it past the first round 3 times since coming back. The Oilers have been past the first round 3 times in 20 years. Ottawa has been past the first round just 4 times in the last 20. And the Leafs have been past the first round just twice in the last 20 years. Montreal has made it 5 times (Burt every time it seemed like a fluke).

In the states the Blues have been past the first round 4 times. Same for Nashville. Same for Philly. 3 times for the Kings. Twice for the Wild.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If he’ a reason you’d think there’s be evidence of it. But moreover, the Flames have had similar lack of success to a lot of teams over that period. The Jets have made it past the first round 3 times since coming back. The Oilers have been past the first round 3 times in 20 years. Ottawa has been past the first round just 4 times in the last 20. And the Leafs have been past the first round just twice in the last 20 years. Montreal has made it 5 times (Burt every time it seemed like a fluke).

In the states the Blues have been past the first round 4 times. Same for Nashville. Same for Philly. 3 times for the Kings. Twice for the Wild.

Oh no… just how deep does Murray Edwards’ nefarious influence reach?

The NHL needs to investigate how he can have such a negative effect on all of these franchises. They must root out the evil within the ownership group!

[WickerChicken]

I’ve been thinking about how differently fans and NHL owners define “success.” For fans, it’s wins, losses, and the pursuit of a Stanley Cup.

But for owners like Edwards, I suspect success is tied to franchise value growth and overall financial performance than on-ice results.

So when I hear Mr. Rebiggle say we don’t want to “be like Buffalo”—despite our on-ice performance being even worse over the last 20 years—it makes me wonder whether he’s delusional or simply measuring success by an entirely different scoreboard than the fans.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are you somehow trying to make an argument he's not been one of the reasons the Flames have advanced past the first round only 3 times and never further over the past 20 years? Insisting on a rebuild? Please!

I think he's saying (and Calgary4Life above as well) that we just don't know.

You can make an argument, but there aren't really any facts.

To actually assess things I'd like to know what he's meddled in (examples), and then I'd need to know what other owners are involved in.

I'd assume a 7 year x $10M contract goes through every owner. Maybe the trading of any core piece out rebuild or not goes through an owner? I just don't know.

Calgary COULD have ...

a) an owner that meddles too much
b) an owner that meddles the same amount but with worse instincts
c) an owner that meddles less than other owners
d) an owner that doesn't hire good hockey ops people
e) an owner that exists in a market where it's tough to hire good hockey ops people

Do we know either way?

[Erick Estrada]

Flames President John Bean: “I’m not ever allowed to use the word ‘rebuild’" That in itself is all you really need to know about why the organization has been run the way it has for the past two decades.

There's different types of meddling. I don't think Edwards is the type of meddler that's highly involved in the drafting process or free agency. He's the dollars and cents bottom line type of meddler. How often do the Flames ever eat salary on a trade compared to other teams when trading players for picks prospects? We all know about the days where Treliving couldn't complete deadline trades because he had to get them authorized by King. He's a rich guy that's tight with his money and they don't typically make for championship winning owners. I would think most Flames fans can realize he's only begrudgingly letting a rebuild happen because; a) the team is no longer good enough because players like Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hannifin, and soon Andersson were/are leaving regardless of the Flames attempting to retain them & b) he's got that shiny new arena on the horizon so he's willing to accept some short term pain for the first time since he's become owner. You can bet once the arena opens this won't likely be something that happens again.

Lets not forget the recent Conroy contract extension fiasco that was somehow hidden from the public because the guy was worried about perception? Like what owner does that?

[devo22]

it really doesn't matter if it's called a rebuild, a retool or a rebiggle. Actions speak louder than words, and Conroy's trade history paints a pretty clear picture. The biggest criticism I have is that they are simply not upfront to their fan base because they are seemingly scared of the blowback. Now we get this weird kabuki theater where they pretend they're not rebuilding when, in fact, that's exactly what they've been doing.