[News] Conroy, Maloney, Nonis and Pascall all extended 2 years

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Agreed I should say they want some high draft picks. I agree the team has been rebuilding. They hopefully lean into this lost season so they can draft a difference maker who is not 5 years from making an impact.

No, we haven't been rebuilding. To rebuild, you need to be drafting higher than most other teams. Our best draft pick has been 9th.

San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Montreal, Utah, Ottawa, Seattle, Islanders, Philadelphia and Boston have drafted higher than us at least once in the last two seasons, some of them twice.

That's 11 teams we have probably LOST some ground on in terms of top end talent these last two seasons. Third of the league.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, we haven't been rebuilding. To rebuild, you need to be drafting higher than most other teams. Our best draft pick has been 9th.

San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Montreal, Utah, Ottawa, Seattle, Islanders, Philadelphia and Boston have drafted higher than us at least once in the last two seasons, some of them twice.

That's 11 teams we have probably LOST some ground on in terms of top end talent these last two seasons. Third of the league.

I think this is actually a good point of discussion and something a lot of us argue about. What exactly constitutes a team being in a rebuild?

We tried to re sign some vets like Lindholm and Hanifin. But it didn't end up working out, so we traded them for futures. On one hand you wouldn't be trying to sign these players if you are rebuilding, but at the same time they did end up trading them for futures.

Then you look at the Markstrom trade and that would lead you to believe maybe we are rebuilding as we got a pick and younger player for him. But then also at the same time they didnt trade Rasmus or Kadri when they could have last trade deadline, because they wanted to try to compete for the playoffs. Why would a rebuilding team not take advantage of great offers for vets?

Then you look at the top draft picks, #16 in 2023, #9 in 2024, #18 in 2025. Pretty much league average and losing ground on about half the teams in the league with top end pick potential, which is an important part of rebuilding. We haven't been trading picks to go all in, but we haven't been getting any really high draft picks either.

I can't really tell exactly what we are doing. A rebuilding team would definitely be shopping Kadri and Coleman while they have value, but it has been reported we are not doing that. But we also aren't a buyer either and going all in to compete.

I feel like the best way to describe it is somewhere between a rebuild and retool. But I wouldn't call it a full rebuild with the current direction, unless we actively trade vets who have term left for future assets. It really feels like we are kind of rebuilding, kind of retooling, and kind of hoping to be competitive (without being a buyer) all at once.

I just hope they trade Kadri, Andersson and Coleman, draft top 5 and we can finally confirm it is a rebuild.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, we haven't been rebuilding. To rebuild, you need to be drafting higher than most other teams. Our best draft pick has been 9th.

Drafting is just one part of rebuilding.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Drafting is just one part of rebuilding.

Yeah, it's just the most significant part, the way you acquire top end talent.

Everything else rests on that cornerstone.

You sell players to get more and better draft picks. You sell players to bottom out in the standings to draft higher. You sell vets so your top end talent gets big minutes so they can develop into top end players. You make moves to optimize the roster so to be as good as it can by the time your top end talent is ready to take the team into the playoffs, that sets the schedule for everything else.

Without those top picks it's all just spinning wheels, because you don't have a new core of top end talent.

Yeah you can also try to sign or trade for younger versions of Kadri, Huberdeau, Weegar, but that usually requires giving away top end talent in exchange or already having them as players top UFA's want to play with. You can draft an Andersson in the later rounds, sure.

But if those are your goals, then why sell these players now for draft picks (and possibly prospects)?

Without that top end talent you're not building anything, you're just replacing this team with a different team that gets roughly the same results.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, we haven't been rebuilding. To rebuild, you need to be drafting higher than most other teams. Our best draft pick has been 9th.

San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Montreal, Utah, Ottawa, Seattle, Islanders, Philadelphia and Boston have drafted higher than us at least once in the last two seasons, some of them twice.

That's 11 teams we have probably LOST some ground on in terms of top end talent these last two seasons. Third of the league.

A. They have been drafting higher than most other teams. You have just admitted that much in your post.

B. Yes, some teams have drafted higher in one or two of those years. They are rebuilding too. And some started before Calgary did.

C. Rebuilds don’t always start by hitting rock bottom. Plus Calgary had an unexpectedly good year last season - they were predicted to be a top 5 drafter.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Itse

No, we haven't been rebuilding. To rebuild, you need to be drafting higher than most other teams. Our best draft pick has been 9th.

San Jose, Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Montreal, Utah, Ottawa, Seattle, Islanders, Philadelphia and Boston have drafted higher than us at least once in the last two seasons, some of them twice.

That's 11 teams we have probably LOST some ground on in terms of top end talent these last two seasons. Third of the league.

They have been rebuilding without argument IMO

Whether or not it is a good rebuild / good strategy so far is what I think the argument should be .

I do believe they thought they would be bottom 10 last year and keep their pick and in the long run last year will set them back at least 1 year in the rebuild plan and really was a disaster to the rebuild plan - having your pick 32nd when you are trying to kick off the rebuild isn’t less then ideal !

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They have been rebuilding without argument IMO

Whether or not it is a good rebuild / good strategy so far is what I think the argument should be .

I do believe they thought they would be bottom 10 last year and keep their pick and in the long run last year will set them back at least 1 year in the rebuild plan and really was a disaster to the rebuild plan - having your pick 32nd when you are trying to kick off the rebuild isn’t less then ideal !

They picked 18th and 32nd (and got two very good players).

[Enoch Root]

Rebuilding involves more than just picking high - the entire process of trading the vets, dropping in the standings, and stockpiling extra picks, is also part of it.

Sure, they haven't yet reaped the rewards of a top pick, but that doesn't negate the fact that they have been rebuilding for 2 years.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They have been rebuilding without argument IMO

Whether or not it is a good rebuild / good strategy so far is what I think the argument should be .

I do believe they thought they would be bottom 10 last year and keep their pick and in the long run last year will set them back at least 1 year in the rebuild plan and really was a disaster to the rebuild plan - having your pick 32nd when you are trying to kick off the rebuild isn’t less then ideal !

Yeah I guess the debate is between whether intent or reality is more important.

Personal opinion, I don't actually care what they think they've been doing, nor do I care about whether other people call it a rebuild or not. It doesn't matter what "model" they think they're following.

I don't see anything yet that has a realistic chance of building a better team in the future. That's the only thing that matters.

I get how we got here, and I'm not actively hating on the current management, because it was mostly Treliving who dug this hole and made it as deep as it is. F that guy, I hope he's hired by the Oilers.

It's however time to get serious about hunting legitimate top picks, and I want to see moves that make it a reality.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They picked 18th and 32nd (and got two very good players).

Their own pick was 32nd. The other pick was 18th no matter where they were picking

It’s a disaster to pick last when you are rebuilding with your own pick .

And we have no idea if they got 2 very good players. If they were VERY good players they would have fallen to 18th and 32.

They got a player at 32nd that was passed over 31 times. We got 2 mid level 1st round prospects who may turn out , but odds are they won’t be stars if they do . The Flames scouts - as much as people here want to believe- aren’t magic and exponentially smarter than everyone else . Your hope over the rebuild they find 1 or 2 more NHLers then the average teams scouts.

Honzek, Zary , Pelletier. Valimaki , Jankowski , Erixson, Nemisz, Backlund, Irving, Pelech, Chucko

Over the last 20 years these are the players drafted in the bottom half of the 1st round by the team

Sure scouts change , strategy changes , but the reality NHL wise is very few actually hit in the 2nd half of the first round .

16- 32nd picks have a 7.8% of scoring 500 points in their careers and 35% chance to play 500 games

The 32 pick has never had a player score even 750 points in the history of the NHL and only 1 has ever played 1000 games

https://thehockeywriters.com/success...l-draft-picks/

So declaring we got a very good player at 32 might be premature !

(Fun Fact - There has only been 1 player EVER drafted from 24th-32nd overall to get 1000 points and that was Joe Nieuwendyk so maybe Flames are able to find another )

People need to start accepting the reality that picks outside the top few rarely turn into stars , and late firsts hardly make any real impact . You need lots of those bullets to hopefully draft well and add to a highly drafted core to be successful , but pining your franchise go forward success on those picks is a recipe for failure .

[Red Potato Standing By]

Didn’t they lose their own pick to Montreal? So both picks were from other teams, so why would you discount one but not the other?

[ben voyonsdonc]

Whose own pick was 32nd? That was the Panthers’ pick that they got in the Tkachuk trade. The Flames’ pick was sent to the Habs (and onwards to NYI) in the Monny deal. They didn’t have their own pick in the draft last season.

[Vinny01]

Treliving is to blame for the fact the flames lost their pick to the Habs. Maybe Dustin Wolf as well as his Calder finalist run was a huge reason the flames overachieved last year.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Rebuilding involves more than just picking high - the entire process of trading the vets, dropping in the standings, and stockpiling extra picks, is also part of it.

Sure, they haven't yet reaped the rewards of a top pick, but that doesn't negate the fact that they have been rebuilding for 2 years.

So, the terminology is all silly. I've seen so many people shift from 'they will never rebuild' to 'they've been rebuilding for 2 years'.

If there's no agreed upon definition, rebuilding/re-tooling/rebiggling means nothing.

When I say rebuild, I generally am defining it as something along the lines of:

"the process of turning over a roster's construction through the draft, with a foundation built on players selected at the top of the draft, as well as the trading of existing veteran assets to gain additional prospects and picks while prioritizing young players and their development at the NHL level".

I'd also say this is somewhat close to the Flames understanding of the term 'rebuild' based on what we've heard about their lack of desire to draft at the top.

I don't think the Flames have been rebuilding for 2 years, and I think it's disingenous to say they have been when the organization themselves have (through various methods) said they are not rebuilding/haven't been able to say rebuilding. In Conroy's first season, he managed assets wiselely, but pretty much all of his trades included a 'now' piece alongside a 'future' piece, that's not "rebuilding" that's what people have been correctly quantifying as "re-tooling on the fly". I think it's fair to stick with that classification over the last two years. Summarized as: Improved organizational asset management, with a desire to get younger.

I'd also say while they're younger, they are not 'young' as they the the 13th youngest team in the league this season.

To come around and say they've been rebuilding for 2 years is just an attempt to change the narrative around what they have been doing for 2 years. They've been 're-tooling on the fly'.

[ben voyonsdonc]

If your own pick is 32nd, you definitely aren’t in rebuilding mode that season.

[Vinny01]

I think most of us would agree Conroy positioned the team to be able to keep their own pick last year. They finished with the 9th overall pick in 2024 and then traded their starting goalie and Mangiapane with Wolf and Mantha.

The team over performed and Conroy rewarded them by moving what would equate to the value of a 2nd and 3rd to land Frost and Farabee both with at least 2 years of team control and aged 26 and 25.

The team falls just short of a playoff spot and instead of doubling down on that squad and chasing some immediate improvements they stay the course and re-sign some pieces and enter this year with the same group.

Their spot in the standings today are likely where many of us thought they would be last year. The messaging from the organization has been pretty sloppy over the last 2 weeks with a bit of a correction with Conny finally saying what most of us were wanting to hear.

What bothers me was the messaging and pair it with how this organization has operated in the past I think it is valid to be worried they are not going to take the necessary lumps to be in a spot to draft some franchise changing talent that will impact this group by the time the new rink opens.

I certainly feel better about the situation after hearing Conroy’s comments and things like Frank saying the offers for Kadri will be too good to pass up. I will definitely feel better in a couple months once some of the moves start but I am not as concerned as I was after the rebiggle interview and Francis piece

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I think this is actually a good point of discussion and something a lot of us argue about. What exactly constitutes a team being in a rebuild?

We tried to re sign some vets like Lindholm and Hanifin. But it didn't end up working out, so we traded them for futures. On one hand you wouldn't be trying to sign these players if you are rebuilding, but at the same time they did end up trading them for futures.

Then you look at the Markstrom trade and that would lead you to believe maybe we are rebuilding as we got a pick and younger player for him. But then also at the same time they didnt trade Rasmus or Kadri when they could have last trade deadline, because they wanted to try to compete for the playoffs. Why would a rebuilding team not take advantage of great offers for vets?

Then you look at the top draft picks, #16 in 2023, #9 in 2024, #18 in 2025. Pretty much league average and losing ground on about half the teams in the league with top end pick potential, which is an important part of rebuilding. We haven't been trading picks to go all in, but we haven't been getting any really high draft picks either.

I can't really tell exactly what we are doing. A rebuilding team would definitely be shopping Kadri and Coleman while they have value, but it has been reported we are not doing that. But we also aren't a buyer either and going all in to compete.

I feel like the best way to describe it is somewhere between a rebuild and retool. But I wouldn't call it a full rebuild with the current direction, unless we actively trade vets who have term left for future assets. It really feels like we are kind of rebuilding, kind of retooling, and kind of hoping to be competitive (without being a buyer) all at once.

I just hope they trade Kadri, Andersson and Coleman, draft top 5 and we can finally confirm it is a rebuild.

Seems like the strategy is so little, wait and see, and be happy with any outcome.

[GioforPM]

I must have missed the cup parade.

[metroneck]

I think what the ‘We are not being good enough at sucking’ crowd forgets that it is a slow drop from mediocre to the bottom.

Current darlings San Jose, Anaheim, Chicago spent years in our current phase of pain, where there was just enough talent to keep you out of bottom 3, but no Grade A prospects in the pipeline to be excited about.

We all want young and exciting hockey, even if we loose a bunch, but we have to finish with Peak Pain first. Peak Pain is boring 3-2 games, with a vet heavy roster supported by replacement level players, and a few interesting rookies.

I think we are a season and a half away from young and exciting.

[taxbuster]

Conroy’s drafting eye seems pretty good. I’m willing to bet that out of some of his late-round picks he will find a gem or two, like Datsyuk, Bieksa, Stone (Mark), Zetterberg and others. None of them were any too shabby.