Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Fuzz]

Ah, that's the classic Conservativism we like to see.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Premier Smith continues to advance a project that is entirely taxpayer funded, has no private sector proponent, is not a real project and is incredibly alarming to British Colombians, including First Nations along the coast ...

This is classic Danielle Smith playbook. She puts forward a pretend project in a program intended for projects that are far more advanced, then when it doesn't make the list tells everyone about how the terrible federal government is being so mean to us.

[The Fisher Account]

The UCP have realized that they thrive best in the midst of conflict.

[Looch City]

What's another $14 million tax payer funds on pipelines?

Chump change.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Looch City

What's another $14 million tax payer funds on pipelines?

Chump change.

You get a pipeline and You get a pipeline

EVERYONE GETS A PIPELINE!!!!!!!

[Slava]

I thought that her comment about this showing whether Canada works as a country was particularly childish. If we don't get our way, which at this point is literally a pipe dream, then the country doesn't work?

And really, how in the world is the federal government supposed to add this to the list of major projects to get rolling, when there is nothing there? How do you greenlight a pipeline when you don't know the route, have no idea who would fund this, and can't give a credible timeline for construction or anything else?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because that’s the data I could find.

I’m trying to introduce some empirical context for the ‘what’s a good salary’ comments that have been flung around here over the last few days. Emotionally-charged, subjective opinions, and out-of-touch comments like “$130k is a pretty normal white-collar salary” don’t help with that.

You’re a smart guy who understands data and how to use Google. Where would you place Alberta teachers compared with their university-educated peers?

Perhaps you should leave the conversation to smart people and those who know how to use Google, then, because there isn’t much value in popping in to add low value information that others need to contextualize and correct.

Highlighting the median and then saying “See? the maximum a teacher can make is good! Anyone who doesn’t think that is delusional!” is a silly comment for both the comparison of median (with the assumption that all post-grad work is created equal) to max and the suggestion that anyone has said it’s not good. I’m not sure you’re providing the value you believe you’re providing, but I’m confident you believe you’re providing it. Unfortunately that doesn’t do much for anyone else.

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by Slava

A corporation is a corporation. It’s not just for tax purposes, it’s a structure setup for operations. I know that when people hear “let’s tax those bad corporations”, they automatically think of those enormous multinationals who seemingly have money to burn. In reality, all those small businesses and mom and pop shops are corporations.

Small businesses make up a significant chunk of our economy, and raising taxes there is just shortsighted.

Almost nobody who is talking about increasing taxes on corporations is talking about small businesses. Pedantry for pedantry's sake is exhausting.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Median salary for 25 to 54 year old Albertans with a university degree who work full time is $75k.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810045301

$119k is a slappin salary. Anyone who doesn’t realize that - teachers, engineers, software developers, accountants, whoever - has a skewed perception of norms from being surrounded by other upper-middle-class professionals.

Bad comparison.

Lots of people who have a degree don't work in their chosen field - there are plenty of BAs working at Best Buy. People with a BEd who aren't working as teachers as well.

The proper comparison is a professional with six years of university working in their chosen field. So comparing a top grid teacher with a someone with equivalent education working at their professional firm after 7 years is how you'd compare. A first year lawyer (so 7 years education typically) in Calgary makes $110K on average. It's double that for a 10 year lawyer.

Average salary for a chemical engineer in Calgary is $124K. 3 year CPA median salary is $134K.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Gullfoss is asking bad faith questions.

Is $70,000 a fair salary for a starting teacher? No. Trades that require much less experience get paid more. I've seen O&G project coordinators get paid more. $70K is not a good salary for a person who is managing 15-50 other people. No industry in the province would say that is acceptable.

Is it fair to ignore the fact that they have only gotten a 5% raise in the last 10 years? No, that is absurd and any other worker in that situation would be equally mad about their pay.

Is it fair to ignore the fact that their working conditions have been decimated by their employer? No, anyone who has worked piled on them without an increase in pay would "burn out" and quit to find an employer that doesn't suck.

I am not a teacher and I do not speak for teachers but as a worker, I wholeheartedly feel that teachers are being treated terribly by the government, specifically the UCP, as well as the UCP supporters who are too self absorbed and uninformed to understand or care about the situation until it directly impacts them.

For comparison average wage for a entry level engineer in Alberta is $79,000 ($90,000 total comp) based on the 2024 APEGA survey.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Suave

For comparison average wage for a entry level engineer in Alberta is $79,000 ($90,000 total comp) based on the 2024 APEGA survey.

And teaching is funny in that an entry level engineer is usually just put into a job amongst a team of enginners, with a senior one supervising them, and no really heavy responsibility. And entry level teacher is thrust into having their own classes for which they are solely resonsible, with identical job responsibilities as a senior teacher (aside from dept. heads and admin). A first year science teacher teaching Bio 10 in high school is doing the same job as a 10 year teacher teaching Bio 10.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Looch City

What's another $14 million tax payer funds on pipelines?

Chump change.

Are we now going to ship tylenol to Asia?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Because that’s the data I could find.

I’m trying to introduce some empirical context for the ‘what’s a good salary’ comments that have been flung around here over the last few days. Emotionally-charged, subjective opinions, and out-of-touch comments like “$130k is a pretty normal white-collar salary” don’t help with that.

You’re a smart guy who understands data and how to use Google. Where would you place Alberta teachers compared with their university-educated peers?

I would say 130k total compensation (when I made that remark in the context of valuing a teacher's pension) is absolutely a very normal compensation range for a 10 year professional in Calgary.

Even the worst of the worst engineers that are stuck at a terrible EPC will make 130k total comp after 10 years.

You made an argument comparing to humanities and social science graduates. If you filter again for 10 year experience people in that field, I'm sure the numbers rise to a reasonable number that doesn't make the teacher salary that far out of line.

Compare also that professional wages in Alberta have gone up since 2019 and teachers have not.

They have went from very well compensated to poorly compensated (but still above the average person). A raise to keep them where they were on the societal ladder from 10 years ago would be reasonable.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Suave

For comparison average wage for a entry level engineer in Alberta is $79,000 ($90,000 total comp) based on the 2024 APEGA survey.

I think I can guess the answer but, how many people is that entry level engineer responsible for overseeing on a daily basis? 10? 20? 30???

The answer is 0. That entry level engineer is being babysat by senior engineers and managers. They probably have training wheels on and are doing work that then needs to be reviewed, corrected, and approved by senior engineers.

How many of those engineers are paying out of pocket for work supplies? Or do they get company cards that they can expense work related costs to?

That part kills me. Why does anyone think it is acceptable for a teacher to pay out of pocket for anything directly related to their work?

[RandyHolt]

I mean I think $70,000 right out of school is pretty good and a great start, especially with guaranteed raises each year. What I don't get is if we want teachers to stay in the profession, why does the scale stop at 9 years experience.

There's very few other professions that have a cap anywhere along the way, but 9 years seems incredibly short. I think keeping the starting salaries the same and having the scale continue to increase up to say 14 years would provide more incentive to stay in the profession.

Seeing my kids school, obviously class sizes and difficulty of the class should and is top priority for most teachers, but having more money for more years experience seems like a no brainer to me. I understand that this would affect pension calculations so it's probably more nuanced, but I'd prefer to see the great teachers stay a longer amount of time.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Looch City

You know who gets paid way too ####ing much? Every single Oil and Gas worker. And they piss it all away and ask for government handouts in the end anyway.

Smh.

We should be demanding more from them to pay the teachers.

Is this satire? Trades wages in O&G are even less than they were when I got my ticket in 2011...14 years of wage stagnation/deflation has been pretty rough. The average journeyman rate is around 45$/hr. 94k/yr (including 4% vacation pay) for the trades guys + ~6$/hr pension contribution if you're in the union. Also no paid sick days, PTO or flex days.

If you see tradesman pulling down 150k+ its because they put in massive overtime hours to get there. But yup, wwwwaaayyyy overpaid, heck they make almost as much per hour as a 5th year teacher.

Sorry for the derail. All people should be sticking together instead of watching the middle class collapse. I think wages across the board in all industries are a joke - companies raking in billions in profits while nickel and diming all their employees is gross. Easier just to finger point at who's getting screwed more I guess.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by indes

Is this satire? Trades wages in O&G are even less than they were when I got my ticket in 2011...14 years of wage stagnation/deflation has been pretty rough. The average journeyman rate is around 45$/hr. 94k/yr (including 4% vacation pay) for the trades guys + ~6$/hr pension contribution if you're in the union. Also no paid sick days, PTO or flex days.

If you see tradesman pulling down 150k+ its because they put in massive overtime hours to get there. But yup, wwwwaaayyyy overpaid, heck they make almost as much per hour as a 5th year teacher.

Sorry for the derail. All people should be sticking together instead of watching the middle class collapse. I think wages across the board in all industries are a joke - companies raking in billions in profits while nickel and diming all their employees is gross. Easier just to finger point at who's getting screwed more I guess.

I don't think it is satire. I am just guessing but I think the intent is that the people building the people of the future should be paid more than O&G workers. Or to put it simply: Kids are more important than Oil.

One mindset shift I have focused on is the populist notion of there only being 2 classes. "Middle class" is a lie to enable culture wars between workers. Upper-middle-class is just a bigger lie for the bug climbing to the top of the dung heap.

The only classes in our society are Working class and Owning class. If you are not a billionaire (or high level multi-millionaire) then you are a worker. Once we all get into that mindset then we should stop hating on other workers and trying to pull other workers down. That is literally what the owners want: Isolate us and have us fight each other instead of them.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I don't think it is satire. I am just guessing but I think the intent is that the people building the people of the future should be paid more than O&G workers. Or to put it simply: Kids are more important than Oil.

One mindset shift I have focused on is the populist notion of there only being 2 classes. "Middle class" is a lie to enable culture wars between workers. Upper-middle-class is just a bigger lie for the bug climbing to the top of the dung heap.

The only classes in our society are Working class and Owning class. If you are not a billionaire (or high level multi-millionaire) then you are a worker. Once we all get into that mindset then we should stop hating on other workers and trying to pull other workers down. That is literally what the owners want: Isolate us and have us fight each other instead of them.

EDIT: Actually I don't agree that you can make the blanket statement that teachers should make more than all O&G workers. Do they deserve more than the guy who's working 24/4 in rainbow lake, living in a camp with shared bathrooms, terrible food and working all day in -40? More than the welder who saved up $100,000 for a welding rig and works in a fab tent for the rest of his life? I'm not sure, you can ask the teachers if they would swap jobs I guess.

This is probably true of any industry, no? Just seems odd to point the finger at O&G and instead of saying teachers should make more, O&G workers should make less lol. Anyways I agree with sticking together. I work in O&G and haven't spoken to a single person here who isn't in support of the teachers, and teachers' in general. The major I work at is also supporting people who need help with childcare (letting people work from home, extra days off, do what they can to accommodate, etc.) I guess it's just a little off putting to see all these people including myself championing the teachers only to get thrown under the bus with misinformation.

[Point Blank]

FYI, all CBE activities for October will be canceled. This includes all field trips, school sports, professional learning, etc. this will happen even if teachers return in October.

All systems will be locked out during Labour action only. Teachers won’t be able to log in nor access emails. D2L and all online platforms will also be shut down but will resume when teachers return.

The facilities will still be available for non-CBE activities such as community sports, and municipal elections will not be affected.

Non-ATA staff are expected to continue working, so EA’s, school secretaries, education directors, superintendents, etc. ATA staff include teachers, assistant principals, and principals.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by indes

This is probably true of any industry, no? Just seems odd to point the finger at O&G and instead of saying teachers should make more, O&G workers should make less lol. Anyways I agree with sticking together. I work in O&G and haven't spoken to a single person here who isn't in support of the teachers, and teachers' in general. The major I work at is also supporting people who need help with childcare (letting people work from home, extra days off, do what they can to accommodate, etc.) I guess it's just a little off putting to see all these people including myself championing the teachers only to get thrown under the bus with misinformation.

I agree. Rising tides raise all boats here. All my friends in O&G (who make much more than teachers) are 100% behind teachers.

I wouldn’t take getting thrown under the bus personally. I think there’s an argument that if we believe teachers are overpaid, many of us are overpaid, even those who make less than teachers, but that should not be contorted to argue that teachers or anyone else should be paid less.