Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1973232051940999312

What exactly about this pay grid seems unfair relative to other professions or provinces?

I'll make it really easy for you. Fewer and fewer people want to do the job for that amount of money. Is it a good salary? Sure, I suppose. Is it enough to do the job? Obviously not, or 89.5% of teachers wouldn't have just thrown it in the trash.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I like what you are saying... but before we look at PST to tax the people of Alberta, the province needs to reverse the corporate tax cuts that have happened under the UCP. Kenney left over $4B in revenue on the table with his tax cuts to corporations and then Smith doubled down on it.

These corporations have done nothing to help Alberta, even with all of the bending over the UCP has done for them. All they have done is put that money in their pockets and then continued to lay off thousands of Albertans.

Tax the corporations, use the money to support the people or drive more investment into industry diversification so that Alberta is not left holding the bag when the bottom falls out on the O&G industry.

I would also argue that before any pst we should be looking at a much more robust and stratified income tax, if you can't afford to least tax at the average level for income than you have no place hitting low income people with regressive sales taxes. And I would say a decent sized hospitality tax too before the pat, it might not be as big, but at least that would create revenue from outside for the province, instead of just shuffling money around.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Edmonton Publics School Board Average Class Sizes by Year...

What's the source for this?

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by edslunch

The government is advertising their position on schools and teacher hiring like crazy. Must have seen it at least 6 times in half a ball game. I understand from the discussion here that 3000 teachers is not enough considering the number of existing and planned schools. I’m not aware that ATA has posted a public counter-proposal, so what’s the thinking for what an acceptable number is?

Edit: the fact that I can quote the exact UCP numbers while the ATA position is not well known seems like a problem for the PR war. The average person has no idea whether 3000 teachers is adequate or not.

Also is it true that none of the $8B for new schools has been spent or even budgeted yet?

If Alberta spent to the national average on a per-student basis we would have about 6,000 - 8,000 more teachers right now, not 3 years from now.

You can enter your child's school or your neighbourhood school here to see the impacts of how many more teachers that school would have if they just properly funded education to the national average: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrI...U0NjYzMmYxNSJ9

My school would have 8.5 more teachers. So class sizes would go from this:

Kindergarten - 18/18
Grade 1 - 22/22/22
Grade 2 - 20/20/20
Grade 3 - 28/28/28
Grade 4 - 25/25/25
Grade 5 - 26/26/26
Grade 6 - 28/28/27

To maybe this:

Kindergarten - 12/12/12 - one more 0.5 teacher
Grade 1 - 17/17/16/16 - one more 1.0 teacher
Grade 2 - 20/20/20
Grade 3 - 21/21/21/21 - one more 1.0 teacher
Grade 4 - 19/19/19/18 - one more 1.0 teacher
Grade 5 - 20/20/19/19 - one more 1.0 teacher
Grade 6 - 21/21/21/20 - one more 1.0 teacher

Maybe we could have a Phys Ed teacher and a Music teacher (two more 1.0) and a teacher to plan for the success of the 240 English Language Learners our school has (40 or so of them who are brand new to Canada within the last six weeks). Or maybe we could afford more than one EA who is shared amongst the entire school for the dozens (approaching 100) kids who have diverse learning needs.

[Point Blank]

Uncited source aside, keep in mind all EPSB teachers had to shift from teaching 6/8 to 7/8 starting around 2022.

CBE high school teachers are between 6/8, 6.5/8, or 7/8 (with no extracurriculars), but most are 6/8.

[puffnstuff]

I will ask, what exactly does the 6/8 or 7/8 mean? I assume its classes?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1973232051940999312

What exactly about this pay grid seems unfair relative to other professions or provinces?

Do you want Alberta to be a province that has teachers come to in order to teach?

Or do you want Alberta to be a province that teachers leave in order to teach?

Do you want intelligent, critical thinking youth to aspire to be teachers?

Or do you want intelligent, critical thinking youth to eschew the idea of being teachers when "other professions" pay just as well?

Teachers are one of the most important parts of a (democratic future-forward) society. They're highly educated (most have at least one post secondary degree, many have two), they double as babysitters for most working adults, they work countless hours outside of "school hours" grading papers and preparing lessons, and on top of all that, they have to build a working relationship with not one, but every single one of their students in order to help them succeed in the grand scheme of life.

Education isn't your typical person's corporate gig where you just sit in meetings all day while secretly browsing Calgarypuck or Reddit, while being mentally checked out of anything that doesn't involve your year end bonus, knowing full well that your only real contribution to society is as a cog in the system helping some millionaires get even bigger year end bonuses.

Education is an essential service. And the UCP want to defund it, because that's the conservative playbook.

Peter Lougheed's Alberta is one where Teachers from Ontario, Quebec, BC, Europe... they want to come here to teach because it's worth it for so many reasons, including their ability to make a livelihood.

Danielle Smith's Alberta is one where Teachers from Alberta... they want to stop teaching unless a private school hires them because it's just another job they stumbled across.

Beyond that, that's not even a lot of money. Those are Canadian dollars. The top end of that scale is 86k USD. That's basically an AHL rookie salary.

We should be inspired by striking teachers. Most jobs underpay workers who don't jump ship every other year. When really, those kind of pay structures should be standard at most jobs

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I'll make it really easy for you. Fewer and fewer people want to do the job for that amount of money. Is it a good salary? Sure, I suppose. Is it enough to do the job? Obviously not, or 89.5% of teachers wouldn't have just thrown it in the trash.

The salaries Gullfoss posted aren’t that great. IMO. It also depends on where you live. I think the poverty line wage for a family of 4 in Calgary is like $60k now (I think 2024 was like $58k). Like, no, those salaries are okay, but let’s not pretend they’re swimming in money here. The benefits and specifically the pension are great, however. Just my opinion. I don’t really want or require teachers personally to be just barely above the poverty line.

I also think this is actually largely about salaries and think it’s weird people tip-toe around it. That’s the main issue, it isn’t enough, the gov will have to do better. Paying parents daycare money that could otherwise go to teachers is stupid.

Gullfoss wants an answer but nobody here is really knowledgeable enough about the job to give one, honestly. Unless you’re a teacher in which case I think it’s fair to be like ya- it isn’t enough.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

The salaries Gillies posted aren’t that great. IMO. It also depends on where you live. I think the poverty line wage for a family of 4 in Calgary is like $60k now (I think 2024 was like $58k). Like, no, those salaries are okay, but let’s not pretend they’re swimming in money here. The benefits and specifically the pension are great, however. Just my opinion. I don’t really want or require teachers personally to be just barely above the poverty line.

I also think this is actually largely about salaries and think it’s weird people tip-toe around it. That’s the main issue, it isn’t enough, the gov will have to do better. Paying parents daycare money that could otherwise go to teachers is stupid.

Gullfoss wants an answer but nobody here is really knowledgeable enough about the job to give one, honestly. Unless you’re a teacher in which case I think it’s fair to be like ya- it isn’t enough.

I'm one of those 6 year teachers with a Masters at the top of the salary grid.

My wife is an Engineer at a small chemical company downtown. She is on Mat Leave and will not work a single day in 2025. I would not say her job is challenging emotionally or mentally, but she has some specialized knowledge that I don't have.

With her 2024 bonus paid out in April, EI, and EI top-up from her company, she will still make more than me this year without even working a day.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Lots of personal jibes but no one willing to answer the question...

It's a market guy. The market sets the wage. Your Twitter vibing doesn't qualify as an intelligent opinion here.

Could you imagine how stupid I would sound if I went online and complained about how much plumbers make? 80k for a plumber sounds about right to me, some guy who doesn't know ####. I don't think they should really make any more than that. Why won't anyone argue with me!?!?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

The salaries Gillies posted aren’t that great. IMO. It also depends on where you live. I think the poverty line wage for a family of 4 in Calgary is like $60k now (I think 2024 was like $58k). Like, no, those salaries are okay, but let’s not pretend they’re swimming in money here. The benefits and specifically the pension are great, however. Just my opinion. I don’t really want or require teachers personally to be just barely above the poverty line.

I also think this is actually largely about salaries and think it’s weird people tip-toe around it. That’s the main issue, it isn’t enough, the gov will have to do better. Paying parents daycare money that could otherwise go to teachers is stupid.

Gullfoss wants an answer but nobody here is really knowledgeable enough about the job to give one, honestly. Unless you’re a teacher in which case I think it’s fair to be like ya- it isn’t enough.

Of course the unions biggest concern is wages. Why should teachers care about how well they educate kids. It’s remarkable that they do. That class size is one of their priorities shows the dedication that the majority of the rank and file have.

Really we should be like France and have general strikes when the government fails the population.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Looch City

You know who gets paid way too ####ing much? Every single Oil and Gas worker. And they piss it all away and ask for government handouts in the end anyway.

Smh.

We should be demanding more from them to pay the teachers.

We certainly do.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by #-3

I would also argue that before any pst we should be looking at a much more robust and stratified income tax, if you can't afford to least tax at the average level for income than you have no place hitting low income people with regressive sales taxes. And I would say a decent sized hospitality tax too before the pat, it might not be as big, but at least that would create revenue from outside for the province, instead of just shuffling money around.

I'm with you. I really liked the Federal NDP's proposal to cut GST from basic household goods. They had tax cuts for up to "Two parents each earning $150,000" and then tax increases when you get up to 2 incomes making $300,000 each and above.

GST and PST hits low income families harder. As a society we are better served making the rich pay more, especially as their earning are accelerating away from the average at a faster and faster rate.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

I will ask, what exactly does the 6/8 or 7/8 mean? I assume its classes?

A high school semester has 4 blocks, so in one semester, teachers typically teach 3/4 blocks, meaning they get one prep to mark and plan.

EPSB going 7/8 means for one semester a teacher is teaching with no prep. If all high school teachers had to take on one additional section, it would certainly give the impression that class sizes were maintained.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

The salaries Gullfoss posted aren’t that great. IMO. It also depends on where you live. I think the poverty line wage for a family of 4 in Calgary is like $60k now (I think 2024 was like $58k). Like, no, those salaries are okay, but let’s not pretend they’re swimming in money here. The benefits and specifically the pension are great, however. Just my opinion. I don’t really want or require teachers personally to be just barely above the poverty line.

I also think this is actually largely about salaries and think it’s weird people tip-toe around it. That’s the main issue, it isn’t enough, the gov will have to do better. Paying parents daycare money that could otherwise go to teachers is stupid.

Gullfoss wants an answer but nobody here is really knowledgeable enough about the job to give one, honestly. Unless you’re a teacher in which case I think it’s fair to be like ya- it isn’t enough.

Gullfoss is asking bad faith questions.

Is $70,000 a fair salary for a starting teacher? No. Trades that require much less experience get paid more. I've seen O&G project coordinators get paid more. $70K is not a good salary for a person who is managing 15-50 other people. No industry in the province would say that is acceptable.

Is it fair to ignore the fact that they have only gotten a 5% raise in the last 10 years? No, that is absurd and any other worker in that situation would be equally mad about their pay.

Is it fair to ignore the fact that their working conditions have been decimated by their employer? No, anyone who has worked piled on them without an increase in pay would "burn out" and quit to find an employer that doesn't suck.

I am not a teacher and I do not speak for teachers but as a worker, I wholeheartedly feel that teachers are being treated terribly by the government, specifically the UCP, as well as the UCP supporters who are too self absorbed and uninformed to understand or care about the situation until it directly impacts them.

[CliffFletcher]

Median salary for 25 to 54 year old Albertans with a university degree who work full time is $75k.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810045301

$119k is a slappin salary. Anyone who doesn’t realize that - teachers, engineers, software developers, accountants, whoever - has a skewed perception of norms from being surrounded by other upper-middle-class professionals.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Median salary for 25 to 54 year old Albertans with a university degree who work full time is $75k.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810045301

$119k is a slappin salary. Anyone who doesn’t realize that - teachers, engineers, software developers, accountants, whoever - has a skewed perception of norms from being surrounded by other upper-middle-class professionals.

Is that census data? If so it's almost 5 years out of date. Median wages have increased by almost 20% since then, so that $75K would be more like $90K (and closer to $100K if you're projecting forward several years from now like the teacher contract is).

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Median salary for 25 to 54 year old Albertans with a university degree who work full time is $75k.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810045301

$119k is a slappin salary. Anyone who doesn’t realize that - teachers, engineers, software developers, accountants, whoever - has a skewed perception of norms from being surrounded by other upper-middle-class professionals.

Why are you comparing median to max and 2021 data to 2027 data?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why are you comparing median to max and 2021 data to 2027 data?

Because that’s the data I could find.

I’m trying to introduce some empirical context for the ‘what’s a good salary’ comments that have been flung around here over the last few days. Emotionally-charged, subjective opinions, and out-of-touch comments like “$130k is a pretty normal white-collar salary” don’t help with that.

You’re a smart guy who understands data and how to use Google. Where would you place Alberta teachers compared with their university-educated peers?

[puffnstuff]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.7648452

After months of Premier Danielle Smith vowing to find a company willing to develop a new oil export pipeline, the Alberta government itself is taking the plunge.

So far, Smith is committing $14 million to create and submit the proposal to the federal Major Projects Office in the spring, which would include identifying a possible route to the West Coast and cost estimates.


Near the end of this story they have a small quote from BC premier Eby, his full quote about this is worth a read
Premier Smith continues to advance a project that is entirely taxpayer funded, has no private sector proponent, is not a real project and is incredibly alarming to British Colombians, including First Nations along the coast ...
We need a major projects office at the federal level. Not a major distractions office. Not a major politics office, but an office that advances real, shovel-ready projects that will move this economy forward in British Columbia and nationally. What I am seeing from Alberta directly threatens that.
I am all for working closely with Alberta on electrical intertie that's going to drive down electrical rates for Alberta consumers; on the hydrogen sector, [where] we both need the federal government to assist us with getting hydrogen to market; to build that economy on other major infrastructure projects and projects that have real private sector backing, that aren't entirely taxpayer funded wedge politics.