Craig Conroy Needs to Pick a Lane

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I think if they were set on a true rebuild Naz and Ras would be gone. I understand that Conroy hasn’t gotten his asking price on Ras, but the longer we hold onto him and Kadri, the more our own rebuilding capital decreases. Had we been completely out of the playoff picture I assume one or both of those guys would be gone - I would like to see the organization make a strong commitment to the rebuild, ignore the standings, trade more of our valuable veterans for draft capital and/or young, promising players. To me it feels like they let the standings dictate what their plan is… which in my opinion is a mistake.

I think it’s more important that fans recognize the model of something they have in their head isn’t actually followed by anyone, so holding a team to it and judging whether they’re situation they’re in is a “true” rebuild or if they’re “strongly” committed to it based on this fantasy model with no reference case is just a recipe to be dissatisfied with the approach.

They can be strongly committed to a true rebuild and not trade Kadri OR Ras. And there’s about a dozen different reasons why that could be true.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I think if they were set on a true rebuild Naz and Ras would be gone. I understand that Conroy hasn’t gotten his asking price on Ras, but the longer we hold onto him and Kadri, the more our own rebuilding capital decreases. Had we been completely out of the playoff picture I assume one or both of those guys would be gone - I would like to see the organization make a strong commitment to the rebuild, ignore the standings, trade more of our valuable veterans for draft capital and/or young, promising players. To me it feels like they let the standings dictate what their plan is… which in my opinion is a mistake.

Kadri has a NMC.

[FanIn80]

It's like there's an old car (hockey team) that costs a lot of money to keep running, and while it might get you to work (play a regular season game) 82 times a year, it will only get you home again (win) 45-48 times a year... and if it ever manages to make it out onto a highway (playoffs), you know there's no way it will ever get you where you want to go (a Stanley Cup).

Approach A - The voluntary rebuild.
"I've had enough. I'm not waiting until this thing dies on the side of a road for good. I'm parking it in my garage, and I'm tearing out the engine, tranny, differential, suspension, etc, and I'm replacing them with all new components. I'm rebuilding the engine completely (I might keep the same block and maybe the heads), but the plugs, pistons, gaskets, chains, belts are all getting replaced. Probably keep the tranny housing, but the flywheel, clutch, plate etc are all being replaced. Definitely replacing the entire suspension. I could maybe clean up the leaf plates and U bolts, but new springs, new bushings, etc etc."

Approach B - The involuntary rebuild.
"Damn it. I want to keep driving this thing, but the engine just doesn't want to start anymore! I even tried to throw a pile of money at it, but then the electrical quit on me, so I started trying to trace whatever was shorting that out and now the tie rods are giving out and the (etc, etc, etc). Well, I guess I'll tow it back to my shop and figure out what I can keep and what needs to be replaced or rebuilt. The car isn't running, but the goal is to still be on the highway with this thing, whether it running or not. Our motto is "Just get on the highway and go from there!""

Approach C - The Tree method
"Damn. This car just keeps falling apart. It's like none of the parts even want to work no matter what I do... but I'm just gonna keep replacing pieces with other old, worn out pieces. It sucks becuase a lot of those pieces are more expensive and perform even worse, but I'm convinced this is a highway car that will get me where I want to go! I just have to find the right combination of old parts... and maybe find a couple new parts here and there, and then just try to ignore that new parts just get messed up becuase they have to run at the pace of old failing parts... to the point where the value of the new parts are completely ruined and..."


Approach C was starting to make me mad again... lol.

Anyway. The Flames fall completely under the umbrella of "Approach B."

[Jiri Hrdina]

Based on your explanations they seem like more option a

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Linholm wanted 8M/yr, and when we offered it, he still said no. Conroy himself even said that we finally offered him what he wanted, but he still wanted out.

I agree that Tanev would have stayed for more money. That's literally what I said.

The tweet from Zadorov's agent about wanting to go to Toronto was posted right after a bad loss, and at the time he went off the people in the room who wanted Sutter gone are the ones who are happy with losing.

Thanks for reminded me why Markstrom was mad. He told the team he was open to either being traded or extended, and then got mad and actively wanted out when it was leaked that he was being shopped.

Don't know what your point is though. Trading vets for youth/picks is the hallmark of a rebuild... but vets wanting out and the team trying to convince them to stay but eventually relenting and trading them for youth/picks is not a rebuild.

What if Lindholm accepted the 8M/yr offer? What if we did pay more for Tanev to stay than what his value was? What if Hanifin had been the one that relented and accepted one of our offers that we kept coming to him with during the 7 months we tried to sign him? What if no one leaked that we had phone around about Markstrom, and he never got mad enough to demand a trade, and since Tanev, Lindholm and Hanifin all re-signed it made more sense to keep Markstrom and make Wolf his backup? What if Lindholm accepted his offer right away, so we knew how much money we had left for the others, and were able to get to Zadorov before he got mad?

The reality is that the only reason we even look like we're rebuilding is becuase the core that we had didn't want to stay. It's not becuse the Flames decided to move on from them.

The reason I'm behind Conroy is because Tre would have replaced those guys with other vets, but Conny didn't want to do that. The facts are that he tried to keep the vets, failed and refused to replace them with other vets. Those are the facts. The part I choose to make up in my own head is that it was ownership that told him to try to keep the vets, and Conny was happy that they all turned us down becuase it allowed him to force ownership to move on.

Surely on the internet there is a quote of Conroy saying the Flames offered Lindholm what he wanted, if he said it.

But if he never said it it probably is not on the internet.

Me, I am very confident he did not say it.

But whenever I point out that the Flames are doing the biggest sell off veterans rebuild in NHL salary cap history nobody can even point to one team that has sold off more vets for futures in the past 20 years. It is weird because one would think there would be an example.

[bigpete]

I think Conroy has generally been moving in the right direction and making the team younger with some good building blocks for the future. The obvious bright spots are Wolf as (hopefully) the long-term franchise star goalie. And Parekh as (hopefully) the long-term franchise star defencemen.

The part missing though is the impact star forwards. We've got good pieces but no sure-thing star forward to build around, especially a potential 1C. Until we get one of those we are going to feel stuck.

I would be doing everything to try to move Kadri and Andersson right now for picks and prospects in the hope that we can get lucky and find a 1C.

[GioforPM]

If Conroy offered vets a deal it's probably because (a) it would have meant they were easier to trade or (b) he felt that he should make a token offer to vets who've given the team a lot. As an ex pro he may have felt it was kind of disrespectful not to. But only at a price that would allow a rebuild at the same time. It's really only Lindholm we're talking about anyway because Hanifin is still in the age range for a rebuild.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

A GM can only pick a strategy; they cannot pick an outcome.

You're entire premise seems to be he hasn't picked a lane because the outcome of last season was better than expected.
It's a false premise.

100%
Should have been a sub 80 point team

[getbak]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If Conroy offered vets a deal it's probably because (a) it would have meant they were easier to trade or (b) he felt that he should make a token offer to vets who've given the team a lot. As an ex pro he may have felt it was kind of disrespectful not to. But only at a price that would allow a rebuild at the same time. It's really only Lindholm we're talking about anyway because Hanifin is still in the age range for a rebuild.

It can also be to drive up the price other teams will pay in a trade. You show that you're not anxious to move the player, in fact, you might sign him to a new contract if you can agree on the numbers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getbak

It can also be to drive up the price other teams will pay in a trade. You show that you're not anxious to move the player, in fact, you might sign him to a new contract if you can agree on the numbers.

Some people here have never sold their car.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Linholm wanted 8M/yr, and when we offered it, he still said no. Conroy himself even said that we finally offered him what he wanted, but he still wanted out.

I dont care to wade into this discussion again, but quotes from Lindholm, his agent, and Conroy all prove this is factually inaccurate.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Groot

I dont care to wade into this discussion again, but quotes from Lindholm, his agent, and Conroy all prove this is factually inaccurate.

Don't let facts get in the way of outrage!

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

100%
Should have been a sub 80 point team

This team maybe overachieved by 4-5 points, sure. But to call them a sub 80 point team is madness. They finally have stability in net after many years of instability (aside from one great season by Marky). The goaltender is part of the team. And the players play well together and all buy in to the team philosophy and structure. That's not a reason to say they overachieved by 20 points, lol.

This team has no elite forwards (though Kadri had arguably an elite season), but they score by committee and get timely goals. It's a formula that works. They just ran out of runway last season or they would have made it in.

Tell you what, if the Flames finish with less than 80 points this season, I'll donate $100 to a charity of your choice. Will you do the same if they finish above 80 points?

[kehatch]

• Conroy has made one trade in the past 15 months
• We are about to enter the season with one of the NHLs lowest payrolls
• The majority of our top players are 30+
• We lack star talent across both the active roster and system
• The Vegas odds of us making the playoffs or drafting McKenna are both very low
• The most likely outcome of this season is we draft in the 12 to 14 range

Conroy has not picked a lane. He is driving on the line waiting for something to force him to swerve. Its not a smart way to drive a Volkswagen or run a hockey team.

For those that think the lack of action is due to a lack of options, let me ask you this. If the Flames had finished bottom 5 last season do you think this summer would have went the same way? What if we made it to the conference finals?

[GullFoss]

Teams worse than the flames:
Chicago
Pitsburgh
Sharks
Seattle

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by kehatch

• Conroy has made one trade in the past 15 months
• We are about to enter the season with one of the NHLs lowest payrolls
• The majority of our top players are 30+
• We lack star talent across both the active roster and system
• The Vegas odds of us making the playoffs or drafting McKenna are both very low
• The most likely outcome of this season is we draft in the 12 to 14 range

Conroy has not picked a lane. He is driving on the line waiting for something to force him to swerve. Its not a smart way to drive a Volkswagen or run a hockey team.

For those that think the lack of action is due to a lack of options, let me ask you this. If the Flames had finished bottom 5 last season do you think this summer would have went the same way? What if we made it to the conference finals?

Bottom five? Summer would have been the same. You have to ice an NHL roster. NMCs preventing moving guys you would like to move on from. No real takers for what you were selling (lots of buy low opportunities for other teams).

Conference finals? CC would have signed Ras and been a buyer, and would have used all the cap space and maybe some assets to get immediate scoring help, because we would have done that run on Wolf and D.

[Enoch Root]

Conroy isn't doing exactly what I want, when I want it. Therefore he hasn't picked a lane!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Teams worse than the flames:
Chicago
Pitsburgh
Sharks
Seattle

Celebrini
Smith
Eklund
Misa
Musty
Dickinson
Askarov

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Celebrini
Smith
Eklund
Misa
Musty
Dickinson
Askarov

Better upside for sure. But this season, not very good . Still a bottom feeder

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Better upside for sure. But this season, not very good . Still a bottom feeder

Yeah that's fair.