The Legend of Sam Bennett

[CliffFletcher]

Florida is in the enviable position of having an elite 2-way guy as their #1C. That means they can slot Bennett as their #2C without worrying about matchups.

It’s easy to say the Flames should have given Bennett more opportunity at his natural position. But how to do you slot these guys in ice time, top to bottom?

Monahan
Lindholm
Backlund
Bennett

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No tax except St. Louis and Colorado. No doubt he wanted a team with success. But he wasn’t staying here because of success or no success. It was about money, Covid and fun. It wasn’t like relatively successful Canadian teams (or ones who looked like it) were in contention.

No tax is a crazy overstatement.

Why bother trying to get in a player's head? Criticizing Tkachuk for chasing money and fun is fine I suppose. But the guy has shown he is an ultra competitor and delivers when it counts. Wish he was still here but time to move on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

No tax is a crazy overstatement.

Why bother trying to get in a player's head? Criticizing Tkachuk for chasing money and fun is fine I suppose. But the guy has shown he is an ultra competitor and delivers when it counts. Wish he was still here but time to move on.

Who criticized him for it?

And I'm not so much getting in his head as looking at where he wanted to go and what he's said from time to time.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Who criticized him for it?

And I'm not so much getting in his head as looking at where he wanted to go and what he's said from time to time.

Saying he left due to "money, Covid and fun" didn't sound like praise to me, felt like a thinly veiled criticism of his priorities.

Definitely some projecting on my part, but just feels like some posters, yourself among them, devote a ton of energy to bringing negativity to his tenure with the Flames and bring the same amounts of energy to defending the organization's treatment and handling of him.

Any comment suggesting that the organization should have learned something from the Bennett and Tkachuk situations is met with justification of the team's actions and implied criticism of the players.

Maybe you're 100% right and the organization did the best they could. Kind of feels to me like there are some lessons to be learned, namely:

Invest in your young players, especially those with the highest ceilings.
Lock up your stars as soon as you can for as long as you can.

You can see Conroy trying to do both. He just doesn't have any stars right now, so hopefully he is locking up the right players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Saying he left due to "money, Covid and fun" didn't sound like praise to me, felt like a thinly veiled criticism of his priorities.

Definitely some projecting on my part, but just feels like some posters, yourself among them, devote a ton of energy to bringing negativity to his tenure with the Flames and bring the same amounts of energy to defending the organization's treatment and handling of him.

Any comment suggesting that the organization should have learned something from the Bennett and Tkachuk situations is met with justification of the team's actions and implied criticism of the players.

Maybe you're 100% right and the organization did the best they could. Kind of feels to me like there are some lessons to be learned, namely:

Invest in your young players, especially those with the highest ceilings.
Lock up your stars as soon as you can for as long as you can.

You can see Conroy trying to do both. He just doesn't have any stars right now, so hopefully he is locking up the right players.

That is a complete micharacterization of what I'm saying. I didn't claim to praise him or criticize him, I just said what the evidence said about his reasons. He has talked about all of those things except taxes and his choices of teams talks about that. In fact, he ended up on the team with the teast amount of prior success. They'd been ousted in the first and second rounds the previous two years and missed the POs for 4 before that.

And I never said the organization did "the best they could", nor have I denied that they could have and should have learned something.

All I have said is that (a) Tkachuk wanted to leave for reasons aside from winning a cup and it sure wasn't because he felt the team had no hope of success and (b) Bennett played better when he got to Florida and maybe some of the problem (not all or even most) was on him.

Your problem is that it's all got to be 100% one way or the other. You can't see any scenario where both player and organization bear responsibility in Bennett's case, or any scenario in which Tkachuk wasn't set on leaving either at the end of his RFA or pretty soon thereafter.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That is a complete micharacterization of what I'm saying. I didn't claim to praise him or criticize him, I just said what the evidence said about his reasons. He has talked about all of those things except taxes and his choices of teams talks about that. In fact, he ended up on the team with the teast amount of prior success. They'd been ousted in the first and second rounds the previous two years and missed the POs for 4 before that.

And I never said the organization did "the best they could", nor have I denied that they could have and should have learned something.

All I have said is that (a) Tkachuk wanted to leave for reasons aside from winning a cup and it sure wasn't because he felt the team had no hope of success and (b) Bennett played better when he got to Florida and maybe some of the problem (not all or even most) was on him.

Your problem is that it's all got to be 100% one way or the other. You can't see any scenario where both player and organization bear responsibility in Bennett's case, or any scenario in which Tkachuk wasn't set on leaving either at the end of his RFA or pretty soon thereafter.

As it relates to Tkachuk, I have no idea if he was set on leaving. Like I said earlier, I just don't see the point in trying to get in his head or in criticizing his play while here.

And I agree with you, Bennett could have played better for the Flames in the regular season.

Isn't it more interesting to discuss the Flames and what they could have/should be doing? Spending energy attributing blame or criticizing former players is pointless. Arguing that Bennett shares blame for this regular season play with the Flames is irrelevant when it doesn't change the fact that the team bungled his development.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

As it relates to Tkachuk, I have no idea if he was set on leaving. Like I said earlier, I just don't see the point in trying to get in his head or in criticizing his play while here.

And I agree with you, Bennett could have played better for the Flames in the regular season.

Isn't it more interesting to discuss the Flames and what they could have/should be doing? Spending energy attributing blame or criticizing former players is pointless. Arguing that Bennett shares blame for this regular season play with the Flames is irrelevant when it doesn't change the fact that the team bungled his development.

Yes, it's more interesting to discuss current Flames. Frankly part of my posts are an overreaction to people who insist on bringing up players who haven't been here for years as reasons why present (new) management sucks. This zombie like thread isn't about Sam Bennett so much as griping about the Flames ex-management. You are right, it's irrelevant to anything current.

I've said before, I don't really care about ex-Flames, whether I liked them or not. That includes universally liked Flames icons like post Iginla and Giordano. Didn't root for or against them. Hossa came up on another thread and he had a good stance on hockey life. He was asked if he regretted moving on from Pittsburgh because they won a cup the year he left and he said no, because who knows what would have happened if he was there - different players, different lines, etc.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Who is defending it? He probably should have stayed with Backlund.

Though I can see the logic in trying to develop him and Jankowski as the top forwards together. And they had their new supposedly 20 goal every year guy with him. It did t pan out but you can see the thinking.

I think he is way better in Fla- he skates better and uses linemates a hell of a lot better.

Bottom line, Sam Bennett played center for the AAA Marlboros, was drafted 9th overall by Kingston and played center there for three years, he was then drafted 4th overall by the Flames as a center.

It took a moron coach named Gulutzan thinking he was smarter than anyone else by playing him as a winger on the bottom 2 lines thus derailing his development.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Florida is in the enviable position of having an elite 2-way guy as their #1C. That means they can slot Bennett as their #2C without worrying about matchups.

It’s easy to say the Flames should have given Bennett more opportunity at his natural position. But how to do you slot these guys in ice time, top to bottom?

Monahan
Lindholm
Backlund
Bennett

Easy.

First of all, Lindholm was on the wing with Johnny and Monny up until Monahan's injury issues prevented him from playing the 1C spot.

Second of all, Backlund has never had the offensive prowess needed for being a #2 C on a SUCCESSFUL playoff team. When you think of top-six two-way centers on Cup winning teams over the years, you think of players like Forsberg, Fedorov, Bergeron, Barkov... even Kadri in Colorado. Backlund isn't one of them, he's a Jordan Staal. Outstanding defensivley, but nowhere near enough offence to be in the top six.

You need two solid offensive lines (at minimum) to win in the playoffs. Teams lucky enough to have a Barkov/Forsberg/etc are able to have three offensive lines because their top shutdown guy could just as easily put up 100pts if they sacrificed their D.

The teams that don't have one of those guys (Pittsburgh) need clearer separation of responsibilities. They have to run two O lines and a separate D line. (Crosby's line / Malkin's line / Staal's line).

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Bennett Someone
Someone Backlund Frolik

("Someones" because I can't remember everyone on the team back then.)

That's a lineup that would have done some damage in the playoffs. The caveat, though, is that it only works if we're willing to let Tkachuk and Bennett play instead of trying to rein them in and take away what makes them successful.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Easy.

First of all, Lindholm was on the wing with Johnny and Monny up until Monahan's injury issues prevented him from playing the 1C spot.

Second of all, Backlund has never had the offensive prowess needed for being a #2 C on a SUCCESSFUL playoff team. When you think of top-six two-way centers on Cup winning teams over the years, you think of players like Forsberg, Fedorov, Bergeron, Barkov... even Kadri in Colorado. Backlund isn't one of them, he's a Jordan Staal. Outstanding defensivley, but nowhere near enough offence to be in the top six.

You need two solid offensive lines (at minimum) to win in the playoffs. Teams lucky enough to have a Barkov/Forsberg/etc are able to have three offensive lines because their top shutdown guy could just as easily put up 100pts if they sacrificed their D.

The teams that don't have one of those guys (Pittsburgh) need clearer separation of responsibilities. They have to run two O lines and a separate D line. (Crosby's line / Malkin's line / Staal's line).

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Bennett Someone
Someone Backlund Frolik

("Someones" because I can't remember everyone on the team back then.)

That's a lineup that would have done some damage in the playoffs. The caveat, though, is that it only works if we're willing to let Tkachuk and Bennett play instead of trying to rein them in and take away what makes them successful.

Except there is no example of a successful team where the shutdown centre is buried on the third line. That's why having Barkov was so important to being able to use Bennett on the second line. It was a perfect spot for him.

I do think Bennett has gotten better defensively which helps a lot too. His forecheck is way less headstrong.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Bennett Someone
Someone Backlund Frolik

("Someones" because I can't remember everyone on the team back then.)

That's a lineup that would have done some damage in the playoffs. The caveat, though, is that it only works if we're willing to let Tkachuk and Bennett play instead of trying to rein them in and take away what makes them successful.

Fair enough. But you’re going to have the Monahan or Bennett line up against the other teams’ scoring line(s) a lot.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Except there is no example of a successful team where the shutdown centre is buried on the third line. That's why having Barkov was so important to being able to use Bennett on the second line. It was a perfect spot for him.

I do think Bennett has gotten better defensively which helps a lot too. His forecheck is way less headstrong.

I literally gave the example in my post. The Pens.

I can't think of a single example of a Cup-winning team with a Backlund-qualty shutdown guy as a top-six center.

Oilers had 99/11 as their top Cs. McTavish was their shutdown guy. We had Nieuwy and Killer as our top two with Otto as our shutdown. Islanders had Brent Sutter as their shut down on the third line.

Those aren't the only examples, just ones that immediately come to mind.

McTavish, Otto, Sutter, Staal, etc. All Cup-winning 3rd line shutdown Cs on teams with two scoring lines above them. That's the category that Backlund should have been in. He's the Otto behind Neiuwendyk and Gilmour -- the Staal behind Crosby and Malkin -- not the Forsberg behind Sakic or Fedorov behind Yzerman.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Florida is in the enviable position of having an elite 2-way guy as their #1C. That means they can slot Bennett as their #2C without worrying about matchups.

It’s easy to say the Flames should have given Bennett more opportunity at his natural position. But how to do you slot these guys in ice time, top to bottom?

Monahan
Lindholm
Backlund
Bennett

Move Lindholm to the RW, make a 2nd line with Bennett and Tkachuk. That's a proven recipe for success, the Flames just never gave it a shake.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Bennett-whoever

That's a contending top 6, that features two lines of proven chemistry.

Bennett was our highest draft pick ever. Stapling him to the bottom 6 was a mistake. Especially after he showed what he could do in the playoffs in Calgary. Bennett led the Calgary Flames in playoff scoring in 2018/19 and 2019/20.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Fair enough. But you’re going to have the Monahan or Bennett line up against the other teams’ scoring line(s) a lot.

For sure. There's certainly the argument that Monahan/Bennett aren't good enough offensively to hold up their end of a Monahan/Bennett/Backlund deployment. I mean it's hard to look at those three centers and compare them favourably as a 1-2-3 compared to 99/11/McTavish or 87/71/Staal or even 25/39/Otto.... but I still contend we would have been better with that deployment than we were with Monahan/Backlund/Jankowski (I actually don't remember who the 3C was, but you get the point).

Ps. I love Backs. I folowed him when he played in Kamloops (wait, Kelowna? I get them mixed up. Actually now I'm thinking Saskatoon becuase I seem to remember the Blades for some reason...). I was telling everyone that would listen how excited I was about him playing for the Flames. It's just that unfortunately, the Flames have been the dictionary definition of playing guys out of their depth for the last... I don't know... 30 years? I believe 100% Backlund would have been an irreplacable Cup-winning 3rd line C on better-run team somewhere else.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I literally gave the example in my post. The Pens.

I can't think of a single example of a Cup-winning team with a Backlund-qualty shutdown guy as a top-six center.

Oilers had 99/11 as their top Cs. McTavish was their shutdown guy. We had Nieuwy and Killer as our top two with Otto as our shutdown. Islanders had Brent Sutter as their shut down on the third line.

Those aren't the only examples, just ones that immediately come to mind.

McTavish, Otto, Sutter, Staal, etc. All Cup-winning 3rd line shutdown Cs on teams with two scoring lines above them. That's the category that Backlund should have been in. He's the Otto behind Neiuwendyk and Gilmour -- the Staal behind Crosby and Malkin -- not the Forsberg behind Sakic or Fedorov behind Yzerman.

Sid has always been a good two way guy. And Malkin wasn't shabby. The whole team was pretty good that way.

And if you are going to try an overwhelm like that your centres better be Sid and Malkin versus Monahan/Lindholm and Bennett. Even on a good team Bennett is a 60 point guy. He just happens to play behind a PPG Selke guy on the top line.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sid has always been a good two way guy. And Malkin wasn't shabby. The whole team was pretty good that way.

And if you are going to try an overwhelm like that your centres better be Sid and Malkin versus Monahan/Lindholm and Bennett. Even on a good team Bennett is a 60 point guy. He just happens to play behind a PPG Selke guy on the top line.

Absolutely. As much as I contend that Backlund isn't a Barkov/Forsberg/Fedorov, I equally contend that Monny/Bennett isn't a Crosby/Malkin, Gretz/Mess, Nieuwy/Gilmour (edit: I mean, nobody is a Gretzky/Messier lol).

I mean, we might have been f'd either way, but my argument is that Monahan/Bennett/Becklund was our best chance with what we had.

(Also, our roster was a bit different since our best players were wingers instead of centers. It's kind of a Johnny/Monny, Chucky/Bennett combo-comparison on our side, if that makes any sense.

Completely different topic... Prime Iggy on the right side with Johnny and Monny. Man, how good would that have been (as much as I loved Conny).

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Bottom line, Sam Bennett played center for the AAA Marlboros, was drafted 9th overall by Kingston and played center there for three years, he was then drafted 4th overall by the Flames as a center.

It took a moron coach named Gulutzan thinking he was smarter than anyone else by playing him as a winger on the bottom 2 lines thus derailing his development.

People love to blame Gulutzan, but Hartley was the one who shunted him to the wing for no apparent reason. And it wasn't just to play him with Backlund, either. Bennett spent an excruciating 19 game stretch on Markus Granlund's wing that year. That was one of the worst forward lines I've ever seen.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Who is defending it? He probably should have stayed with Backlund.

Though I can see the logic in trying to develop him and Jankowski as the top forwards together. And they had their new supposedly 20 goal every year guy with him. It did t pan out but you can see the thinking.

I think he is way better in Fla- he skates better and uses linemates a hell of a lot better.

And I do not. Both of those things just happen to appear better because the quality of his linemates is not dragging him down. In Calgary he used linemates like Gaudreau, Frolik, Jagr, and Backlund just fine.

And his skating is virtually identical. Playing centre does help his skating though for obvious reasons.

Do you really believe he magically started skating better and using his linemates better because of a change of scenery?

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Except there is no example of a successful team where the shutdown centre is buried on the third line.

Sure there is. What ends up happening though is the first line center's reputation gets wildly boosted in these cases despite the actual nature of their performance.

Just look at the 2013 Blackhawks

1st line
Saad - Toews - Hossa
A Calgary equivalent might be:
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm

2nd line
Kane - Handzus - Sharp
A Calgary equivalent might be:
Gaudreau - Monahan - Mangiapane

Shutdown Line
Stahlberg - Kruger - Frolik
A Calgary equivalent might be:
Jankowski - Backlund - Frolik


I know, you're going to tell me Toews won the Selke that year. And... I don't think it matters. He wasn't the best defensive center on his own team that year. He wasn't playing a shutdown role, Kruger was. He wasn't an offensive powerhouse either, he centered some great wingers. (Kane was often on his line too and Hossa is a HOF talent in his own right)

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by blankall

Move Lindholm to the RW, make a 2nd line with Bennett and Tkachuk. That's a proven recipe for success, the Flames just never gave it a shake.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Bennett-whoever

That's a contending top 6, that features two lines of proven chemistry.

Bennett was our highest draft pick ever. Stapling him to the bottom 6 was a mistake. Especially after he showed what he could do in the playoffs in Calgary. Bennett led the Calgary Flames in playoff scoring in 2018/19 and 2019/20.

Exactly, they also chose Ryan over Bennett and that was the beginning of the end

[Calgary4LIfe]

Benentt on the 3rd line starting in his 2nd full year should have been the plan. I believe Hartley spoke about it a few times, and the only reason that Bennett wasn't playing as a center from the start was that he simply wasn't ready. Junior hockey didn't teach him much about the defensive side of the puck. In that year where he was injured, I remember Conroy talking about how he would sit with Bennett up in the stands and watch the plays unfold in real time, and he would ask Bennett where he should be and where he should be moving towards, and Bennett would often get it wrong. Playing next to Backlund was the exact perfect circumstance for Bennett to cut his teeth on.


It was every season after that in which his development got derailed. Gulutzan just didn't have the patience. Peters didn't. Ward didn't. I believe Sutter would have tried him at center eventually. It should never have gotten down to Sutter to decide, however. Gulutzan should have been playing Bennett as a center in Gulutzan's first season, on the their line, where he could have sheltered him somewhat.


All of this is moot anyway. Conory is not Treliving, and Huska is not any of the former coaches. I will take Conroy at his word when he says that Bennett should have received more of an opportunity, so there's that. I would like to see Zary get some reps at center, but with Kadri + Backlund + Frost now, it becomes tough to do unless there is an injury (and Zary was moved to center during injuries), or unless a trade happens (which is not likely either). It will be interesting if the Flames are in a position to draft a guy like Roobroeck, and see how they develop him. Really just as interesting to see how they develop Reschny and Potter too.


By then, Kadri and Backlund will be easier to displace, if they are even in the organization by then. If Frost hasn't noticeably improved, then I imagine the road will be wide-open for any center to grab a spot.