Calgary EMS Workers going on strike

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

Why? From January until the end of April I work a MINIMUM of 60 hours a week and don't get an extra penny for it. I'm getting pretty frustrated with people with about half the education level I have demanding to make as much as I do just because they live in Alberta. As far as i'm concerned, taking the numbers posted above (not mine the other ones), and applying the raise offered is a decent salary for an EMT. These guys aren't doctors and they aren't nurses. This smells of pure greed from a bunch of people who whenever you talk to them say they want to "help people".

I think your attitude would change if they saved your life. Pure greed....RIGHT....I am tired of people with Eng degree's thinking they should make way more than other people.

[Burninator]

Something tells me Fotze is an engineer...

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by fotze

What does that have to do with anything. I think you are really tired that ENG's do make more than you. I have never heard of an ENG saying "I should make more than other people". For starters it is vague and makes no sense and is illogical. Bizarre statement. Is harbourmouth an engineer and I missed it?

Read his quote and you might understand...

He said he is tired of people with half his education as him wanting to be paid the same as him. You can get an Engineering degree in four years....I just picked that degree....any degree would work.....he must have a degree if he is saying that people with half his education want to be paid the same as him......do you get it now???????????

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why? The stress is a clear part of the job. Folks made a decision to go into that field knowing that. I fail to see the problem.

many people want to do certain jobs regardless of the secondary outcomes such as stress. (usually public sevice positions...ie: teachers, police, EMT) However, just because someone loves a job doesn't mean they have to put up with BS because it is the job of their choice. Many people get fed up with the politics and stress of a certain job and get burnt out because it just isn't worth it for what they are geting paid. So why would you want to let very good professionals that save peoples lives leave the job because you think they should have to put up with the stress because they are aware of it prior to being hired?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

I don't post much and generally Jiri, you posts are quite good. But that is a rather ridiculous statement. I just want to clarify that you think people shouldnt be compensated for a stressful job or only that it shouldnt be used as a justification for a raise?

Do you honeslty think that the stresses inemergency services, EMS, police, fire haven't changed over the years? Trust me, they have; and quite substantially.

I guess that's my point. If the stress has indeed changed then a raise could be justified. But if the argument is "EMS works have a stressful job thus deserve more money" I don't agree. A raise is warranted because of improved performance, or because the job itself has changed (e.g. more stress), not because of an element of the job that has remained relatively constant.

So the question is, has the stress on the workers increased and if so whY? (likely answer because of the population explosion in Calgary)

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I disagree. Stress is definitely a determining factor in salary. You are stating as though when they first got into their job the amount they were paid was adequate for the stress of the job. How do you know that is the case? I don't know if what they are payed is adequate or not for their stress, I'm not a EMT.

It can be hard to gauge aspects of a job until you are in that job. School can only give you a glimpse, not the whole picture.

Then they chose the wrong career. I can't go to my boss tomorrow and say "Gee boss, I didn't realize this job would be so stressful...I need more money". Just doesn't work that way. I have to decide whether or not the amount I get paid is worth that stress and if not look for other options.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

many people want to do certain jobs regardless of the secondary outcomes such as stress. (usually public sevice positions...ie: teachers, police, EMT) However, just because someone loves a job doesn't mean they have to put up with BS because it is the job of their choice. Many people get fed up with the politics and stress of a certain job and get burnt out because it just isn't worth it for what they are geting paid. So why would you want to let very good professionals that save peoples lives leave the job because you think they should have to put up with the stress because they are aware of it prior to being hired?

Because that's the way it works. I don't see how money solves the stress problem. If they have a crappy night on the job are they going to get home and think "Man that was stressful...but boy oh boy at least I made a lot of money".

If they can't deal with the stress, they can't deal with the stress...more money isn't going to solve it.

It would be find and dandy if the world worked in a way where those that contributed most to society got paid the most - but it doesn't work that way.

Or put it another way....if they gave into the raise demands and then announced at the same time that because of those increases your taxes would be rising x% - what would be the reaction.

If people truly value EMS workers and want to see them paid more, write your elected official and let them know that you support the union and are willing to chip in 200 bucks more out of your wallet so they can get paid.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It would be fine and dandy if the world worked in a way where those that contributed most to society got paid the most - but it doesn't work that way.

I am adamantly opposed to such a policy as it would result in me and my family going straight to the poor house.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Because that's the way it works. I don't see how money solves the stress problem. If they have a crappy night on the job are they going to get home and think "Man that was stressful...but boy oh boy at least I made a lot of money".

If they can't deal with the stress, they can't deal with the stress...more money isn't going to solve it.

It would be find and dandy if the world worked in a way where those that contributed most to society got paid the most - but it doesn't work that way.

Or put it another way....if they gave into the raise demands and then announced at the same time that because of those increases your taxes would be rising x% - what would be the reaction.

If people truly value EMS workers and want to see them paid more, write your elected official and let them know that you support the union and are willing to chip in 200 bucks more out of your wallet so they can get paid.

Actually, that is quite wrong.

Perhaps the stressful part is being obligated to work 60+ hours a week, and the more money allows them to cut back their hours? Of course, that is also linked with the inflationary pressures of the Calgary Economy.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Actually, that is quite wrong.

Perhaps the stressful part is being obligated to work 60+ hours a week, and the more money allows them to cut back their hours? Of course, that is also linked with the inflationary pressures of the Calgary Economy.

Perhaps. That is the type of detail I'd like to see. I'm just opposed to handing out raises without understanding those type of things. As often I find unions do a piss poor job of presenting a real business case for why the raises need to be provided - which is what's required.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Because that's the way it works. I don't see how money solves the stress problem. If they have a crappy night on the job are they going to get home and think "Man that was stressful...but boy oh boy at least I made a lot of money".

It means getting paid what they are worth.....it lets the employee know that their work is appreciated and respected (hard to come by when you work in the public service)......it helps with having to watch people die, having to be in contact with people that have communicable diseases, people that dont want your help and try to hurt you, having to be away from your family because of shift work, having a lower life expectancy because of shift work......these people deserve what they are asking for....it is very straight forward.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

Why? From January until the end of April I work a MINIMUM of 60 hours a week and don't get an extra penny for it. I'm getting pretty frustrated with people with about half the education level I have demanding to make as much as I do just because they live in Alberta. As far as i'm concerned, taking the numbers posted above (not mine the other ones), and applying the raise offered is a decent salary for an EMT. These guys aren't doctors and they aren't nurses. This smells of pure greed from a bunch of people who whenever you talk to them say they want to "help people".

You must be an accountant.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It means getting paid what they are worth.....it lets the employee know that their work is appreciated and respected (hard to come by when you work in the public service)......it helps with having to watch people die, having to be in contact with people that have communicable diseases, people that dont want your help and try to hurt you, having to be away from your family because of shift work, having a lower life expectancy because of shift work......these people deserve what they are asking for....it is very straight forward.

A lot of people deserve to be paid more.

Let's take the social work industry which is facing a huge staffing problem. They are facing servicing a growing city while at the same time seeing a reduction in their staff due to people leaving for high paying jobs. So we need to get their wages up too

Same with nurses

Same with teachers

Same with people that work with the eldery

Same with drug counsellors

I could go on. So who do we pay more of that group? The entire argument that they should be paid more because of "what they do" just doesn't work in this world. You need to provide a tangible reason for why the increase in wages is required. And as I've stated I'm open to listening to those arguments.

[urban1]

If youre an EMT or paramedic and you dont like it or cant take the stress, then quit. Even in a market like this where recruiting may be tough, someone will come along and take your job.

QUIT! Dont go on strike and hold the public hostage. You chose to be a paramedic. Hopefully you did your research and new what the pay was and what the working conditions were. 2% to 3% sounds good to me. If thats not enough for you then quit and find a new career. Even if we give you 10% now, you will be back at the trough in a few years asking for another 10%.

In the absence of scum sucking unions, jobs usually pay what the markets values them at. Years ago, engineers couldnt find jobs in Calgary. There was no demand and hence wages were low. Today theres a demand for engineers and thus the jobs pay well.

Ask the union if oil crashes and the housing market crashes in Calgary, will the paramedics and EMTs give their wage increases back? In poor economic times, everyone loves a government job because it gives you security even if your job is not needed anymore. Throw in benefits and guaranteed hours and overtime and all of a sudden that union job looks great.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It means getting paid what they are worth.....it lets the employee know that their work is appreciated and respected (hard to come by when you work in the public service)......it helps with having to watch people die, having to be in contact with people that have communicable diseases, people that dont want your help and try to hurt you, having to be away from your family because of shift work, having a lower life expectancy because of shift work......these people deserve what they are asking for....it is very straight forward.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by moon

Those guys also work a lot harder and don't spend half their "shift" watching TV, sleeping or shopping.

You're obviously confusing Paramedics with Firefighters. Unless you're factoring in the hours upon hours they have to spend waiting in the ER halls for a bed... which i guess is like watching TV.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Jayems

You're obviously confusing Paramedics with Firefighters. Unless you're factoring in the hours upon hours they have to spend waiting in the ER halls for a bed... which i guess is like watching TV.

Perhaps it is different in other cities than it is down here for Paramedics.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by urban1

If youre an EMT or paramedic and you dont like it or cant take the stress, then quit. Even in a market like this where recruiting may be tough, someone will come along and take your job. <snip>

This isn't about the stress. Paramedics can deal with it fine, that's why they still have a job. They aren't arguing that the stress of the job should equate to a raise. No where has that ever been mention from their union and if they used that as leverage, every damn emergency service would be using it. As jiri pointed out, as much as it would be nice to pay people who contribute most to society it isn't feasible.

Is EMS really "taking the city hostage"? They're not an essential service and are allowed to strike as every other union is. Blame the provincial government if you're upset for that. They're simply practicing and using their options and I don't think you can fault any union for doing that. Obviously you're not a fan of unions but you recognize the concept of supply and demand. The city is desperately in need for paramedics...having a chronic shortage of medics in this city will only compound itself and get worse and worse if there isn't some sort of action done against it. Not to say that a wage increase would be the only thing that needs to be done...but that is a huge draw for new recruits and especially out of towners...who wants to live in Calgary when you're making 50 grand when you can goto a small town and make the same.

I think the union is asking for a reasonable amount given recent union contracts in the city (transit, IBEW, etc.) and deserve to be paid accordingly. Do you really think a transit operator with five years experience should make more than someone who is risking their life to save yours? They aren't asking for anything outlandish (atleast anymore).

[moon]

Originally Posted by jar_e

who is risking their life to save yours? They aren't asking for anything outlandish (atleast anymore).

People have talked a lot about Paramedics saving lives and now risking their lives as though they do this on a daily basis. I am obviously not the biggest supporter but I wonder how often it is that either of these situations are the case.

How often is it that Paramedics save peoples lives? I am not trying to diminsih their jobs and what they do but it seems as though some are acting as though its all that they do is save lives.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by moon

People have talked a lot about Paramedics saving lives and now risking their lives as though they do this on a daily basis. I am obviously not the biggest supporter but I wonder how often it is that either of these situations are the case.

How often is it that Paramedics save peoples lives? I am not trying to diminsih their jobs and what they do but it seems as though some are acting as though its all that they do is save lives.

I don't have the exact numbers, but I guess it comes down to how you define "saving lives." Is it as black and white as life and death? I don't think so. I could argue that agressively treating breathing problems, somebody having a heart attack, or someone who's been shot/stabbed is "saving a life." It's not a common occurance in the grand scheme of things (though still does happen a lot) for them to have to do CPR on a patient but I think saving a life goes a lot further than that.

In regards to risking their lives, it may not be as high risk as say firefighting or policing, but medics still drive lights and sirens to calls in the middle of rush hour and run the risk of getting in accidents. Just look what happened earlier this year on Memorial/Deerfoot...ambulance gets tboned and left both medics injured. They often go into to rather unsafe situations with drunks, mentally unstable patients, etc. Along with that, you have to consider any sort of disease that can be transmitted through blood, etc. I am confident that all these medics were well aware of these risks before they started the job but it's still a scary thought to think of what they deal with on a daily basis.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by moon

How often is it that Paramedics save peoples lives? I am not trying to diminsih their jobs and what they do but it seems as though some are acting as though its all that they do is save lives.

While most times it would seem they are glorified taxi cabs for the geriatric, they're trained to save a life when the pressure is on. I trust that should I, or someone I care about, get into trouble, that the person responding to them is well qualified and able to save the life. That is worth its weight in gold, no matter what they do in between calls. Even though saving a life doesn't actually weigh anything... i'm sure you get my point.