Calgary EMS Workers going on strike

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

Why? From January until the end of April I work a MINIMUM of 60 hours a week and don't get an extra penny for it. I'm getting pretty frustrated with people with about half the education level I have demanding to make as much as I do just because they live in Alberta.

No offense, but it sounds to me like you may be getting the shaft from your employer. I have less formal education than a paramedic, and I make about what they are asking to make.

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

Calgary transit is a perfect example. They drive a bus. I have more sympathy for the EMT....

Once again, not a fair comparison IMHO, (and it seems like you might agree.) Bottom line, when my heart stops beating I want the best guy (or gal) available to be there to defribulate my ass. I don't want the best one deciding to heck with it and getting a job pushing a mail cart for an oil company.

The other difference; EMS could raise their rates again. What are they at now? Best estimate I could get online was $300-400 per ride. And most people's insurance pays for it. Would it make a difference if it was $500?

[llama64]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

EMT's make 46367 - average high/low brackets
Paramedics make 54625 - average high/low brackets

Ok, thats a more reasonable number for the job they preform. I read the earlier comment as if they were making 20-25k a year. I could make more at McD's.

Originally Posted by mykalberta

So a 30% raise would equate:

EMT = 60277.1
Paramedics = 71013.15

Seems a smidge high for a 2 year degree especially when you get paid OT.

Have you met a graduate of the electrician/welding programs? Engineering Technologist programs? They make that kind of dough, if not more depending on their other qualities. Demand determines wage, not necessarily years in school.

[moon]

Originally Posted by llama64

Have you met a graduate of the electrician/welding programs? Engineering Technologist programs? They make that kind of dough, if not more depending on their other qualities. Demand determines wage, not necessarily years in school.

Those guys also work a lot harder and don't spend half their "shift" watching TV, sleeping or shopping.

[Burninator]

Education isn't the only factor here. There is no rule saying that "since you have a certain level of education you can't make over this amount." Look at the bigger picture. What's the job like, the hours, the stress, and the other factors. Education isn't the be all end all in determining salary. A lot of it depends on industry more so than education. And since the paramedic/EMT doesn't really have a industry it's tough to them to determine what they are worth salary wise. I bet there is a lot of truck drivers that make more than someone with 4 years of university.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Look at the bigger picture. What's the job like, the hours, the stress, and the other factors.

###. For example, if I screw up at work; people don't die.






Well, most of the time they don't.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by ken0042

###. For example, if I screw up at work; people don't die.






Well, most of the time they don't.

I'm not sure if that matters. Society pays people based on how their skill adds to the bottom line, or how hard the skill is to find/obtain. This is the same reason why teachers don't make very much money.

If they are indeed making 75K including overtime that seems OK to me.

One assumes that if you make the decision to go into the line of work you understand what it comes with - including the stresses of it.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm not sure if that matters. Society pays people based on how their skill adds to the bottom line, or how hard the skill is to find/obtain. This is the same reason why teachers don't make very much money.

It does come down to making money. If education and salary were in direct correlation teachers would be making much, much more money.

One assumes that if you make the decision to go into the line of work you understand what it comes with - including the stresses of it.

But one should compensated fairly for that stress. It shouldn't just be part of the job.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think the big problem is (I have a friend who just started his Paramedic practicum) is that to be a an EMT/Paramedic in the city pays far less than if you wanted to go sit a seismic crew or drilling rig. There is very little stress out there and about double the pay. The city is having trouble attracting these guys, especially when most of the day you are spent trying to revive homeless drunk people who have shat and pissed themselves on the sidewalk.

This is the main thing in my mind. I work with medics day in and day out and why would anyone want to work here if you can sit in a warehouse/oil rig/private site etc. making $45 an hour. The city is already running short on ambulances and is becoming a daily problem...you take away incentive for people to work here you are taking a huge gamble and in the end affecting the safety of Calgary citizens .

And if anyone thinks being a medic is a walk in the park I only wish you could see half the stuff they put up with. Yes, they wait in hospitals, and yes, sometimes they do just flex from hall to hall...but the job they do is physically, mentally, emotionally draining. I'm a strong supporter that everyone in emergency services is underpaid (possibly a slight biasedness) but I don't think the public has a realistic view of what everyone goes through. I have nothing but respect for people to put themselves in this position.

[Slava]

I love that when these occupations are on strike (or negotiating) that a group of outsiders thinks that they are over-paid and should be happy making what they are making.

If this is such a great job, and requires such little education to justify the high asking price then why isn't there a line-up of people to apply? Why do they have to work the overtime?

[socalwingfan]

Originally Posted by jar_e

http://content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+H...le+Pre+DIB.htm

A little old (three years) but I don't think they've had a contract since then. Sparks note version....EMT's range from 21.96 to 24.63, Paramedics from 23.74 to 31.15.

My wife worked as an EMT here for almost 1/3 of what the Calgary EMTs are making ( 8 or 9 an hour). After one to many 5150 calls - she decided putting her life on the line for just over minimum wage wasn't cool - she actually moved into dispatch and got a raise. It's almost criminal what they pay EMTs and Paramedics here

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Burninator

It does come down to making money. If education and salary were in direct correlation teachers would be making much, much more money.

But one should compensated fairly for that stress. It shouldn't just be part of the job.

Why? The stress is a clear part of the job. Folks made a decision to go into that field knowing that. I fail to see the problem.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Slava

I love that when these occupations are on strike (or negotiating) that a group of outsiders thinks that they are over-paid and should be happy making what they are making.

If this is such a great job, and requires such little education to justify the high asking price then why isn't there a line-up of people to apply? Why do they have to work the overtime?

That's a good question and long-term the lack of candidates will push wages up in a more natural way.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by socalwingfan

My wife worked as an EMT here for almost 1/3 of what the Calgary EMTs are making ( 8 or 9 an hour). After one to many 5150 calls - she decided putting her life on the line for just over minimum wage wasn't cool - she actually moved into dispatch and got a raise. It's almost criminal what they pay EMTs and Paramedics here

Funny you mention that...that's not in Calgary is it? I know in a lot of dispatch centres (CFD, Calgary EMS, CPS included)...dispatchers are making a significant amount more.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why? The stress is a clear part of the job. Folks made a decision to go into that field knowing that. I fail to see the problem.

Well stress is harmful to your health and I think of it the same way someone would get a "danger pay". It would be like paying a fire fighter less because the possibility of getting hurt or dieing should be expected of a would be fire fighter. Hardly good motivation for someone interested in going into the field.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Well stress is harmful to your health and I think of it the same way someone would get a "danger pay". It would be like paying a fire fighter less because the possibility of getting hurt or dieing should be expected of a would be fire fighter. Hardly good motivation for someone interested in going into the field.

But clearly the motivation was there. That's my point. The knew the job going into it, so to ask fo rmore money because of stress is irrelevent. The stress has always been there - unless their position is that the stress has risen due to factors beyond their control. If this is the case those arguments hold water. But otherwise it doesn't. The job is the same, as is the stress.

If they are arguing that they should be paid more to match Calgary's inflation - that also makes more sense to me. But not the stress one.

[automaton 3]

My sister is a paramedic for FREMS. When they work, they work their asses off in high stress, sometimes dangerous situations. On the flip side when there's downtime they're often getting paid to sleep or watch tv.

Don't you want them on duty and ready to go though? I know I do and don't begrudge their salary one bit.

She has gone up north a few times for occasional shifts where she makes great money. Pretty disruptive for family life though.

Seeing what RN's are paid now, I would think that EMT-P's should be paid more.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by llama64

Ok, thats a more reasonable number for the job they preform. I read the earlier comment as if they were making 20-25k a year. I could make more at McD's.



Have you met a graduate of the electrician/welding programs? Engineering Technologist programs? They make that kind of dough, if not more depending on their other qualities. Demand determines wage, not necessarily years in school.

Yes but the trades industry is a very cyclical buisness. If anyone thinks Alberta will be at the same growth rate 5 years from now, well then I would disagree with them, also they wont have a pension and as all private industries must charge for that in salary and save themselves.

The EMT/Paramedics are asking for permanent wage increases that wont go down plus they get paid OT, and likely have a descent pension (dont know, just guessing).

I am paid comparable to what a paramedic is getting in my second post (55K ish) with 3 weeks holiday. I get that on salary, no OT only 2xTOIL. I do get a substantial bonus worked in depending on company preformance which has been damn wwicked the last 2 years but if the company tanks then that is down the tube.

They seem to be asking for a wage that would justify the working conditions if they wernt getting paid OT. When you get paid OT then the salary should be inline with expectations.

I dont claim to know the OT rules for paramedics but if current ones are making 75k with a base salary of 55k, then thats a damn lot of OT.

I would like to know more situations of the above, working 60hrs/week but not getting OT. If that is the normal case, then the 30% wage increase is not out of line (should be more like 35) but if on average they are making an extra 20K on their salary, which pushes averages to 95/70 ish range then that is out of line.

MYK

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But clearly the motivation was there. That's my point. The knew the job going into it, so to ask fo rmore money because of stress is irrelevent. The stress has always been there - unless their position is that the stress has risen due to factors beyond their control. If this is the case those arguments hold water. But otherwise it doesn't. The job is the same, as is the stress.

I guess it depends on your perspective. Are they asking for more money because of this stress, or are people using the stress to justify the raise?

Me, I was using the stress as an example of why they should make more than say a bus driver. I wasn't saying this is a new thing; I'm saying it is a reason why they deserve more than the bus driver.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But clearly the motivation was there. That's my point. The knew the job going into it, so to ask fo rmore money because of stress is irrelevent. The stress has always been there - unless their position is that the stress has risen due to factors beyond their control. If this is the case those arguments hold water. But otherwise it doesn't. The job is the same, as is the stress.

If they are arguing that they should be paid more to match Calgary's inflation - that also makes more sense to me. But not the stress one.

I don't post much and generally Jiri, you posts are quite good. But that is a rather ridiculous statement. I just want to clarify that you think people shouldnt be compensated for a stressful job or only that it shouldnt be used as a justification for a raise?

Do you honeslty think that the stresses inemergency services, EMS, police, fire haven't changed over the years? Trust me, they have; and quite substantially.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But clearly the motivation was there. That's my point. The knew the job going into it, so to ask fo rmore money because of stress is irrelevent. The stress has always been there - unless their position is that the stress has risen due to factors beyond their control. If this is the case those arguments hold water. But otherwise it doesn't. The job is the same, as is the stress.

If they are arguing that they should be paid more to match Calgary's inflation - that also makes more sense to me. But not the stress one.

I disagree. Stress is definitely a determining factor in salary. You are stating as though when they first got into their job the amount they were paid was adequate for the stress of the job. How do you know that is the case? I don't know if what they are payed is adequate or not for their stress, I'm not a EMT.

It can be hard to gauge aspects of a job until you are in that job. School can only give you a glimpse, not the whole picture.