Israel declares war on Hamas

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What your links are reporting is a Israel - Hamas war in West Bank, as an outspill of main war in Gaza. Here i found an Al Jazeera link confirming that Hamas does have a military wing in West Bank.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/...pied-west-bank

You're right, those children shouldn't have signed up to be in the West Bank Hamas legion.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

None of those links report murders of Palestinian Arabs in Israel. The point was that Israel doesn't murder Palestinian Arabs in Israel, as in contrast with Germany mass murdering Jews in Germany.

What your links are reporting is a Israel - Hamas war in West Bank, as an outspill of main war in Gaza. Here i found an Al Jazeera link confirming that Hamas does have a military wing in West Bank.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/...pied-west-bank

Btw, I'm not a propaganda artist. There's nothing to gain from propaganding in the off topic section of a hockey forum in Calgary. If my goal was to promote propaganda, I would have gone to some more public places. Posters on the wall? Are you a teenager?

This is a goddamn lie and a load of bull#### so thick you can go choke on it.


Just ####ing admit it, like the other Israeli supporters have, at times in this thread. Israeli actions in the West Bank have, for decades, being about taking more land and more control. When they come across people resisting having their land and homes stolen, they kill them. When they come across children throwing rocks, they kill them. This has nothing to do with Hamas. It does tell you exactly what Israeli intentions are, even if you are a thick enough chud to ignore the words of the people who are actively taking the land and killing the people saying they will take the land and kill the people.


This is how it started:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places...and, if we have to use force... then we have force at our disposal." (from Nur Masalha, Expulsion of the Palestinians, p. 66)



"After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the [Jewish] state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of the Palestine" (from The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, p. 22)

https://imeu.org/article/what-leadin...bout-the-nakba


Many more quotes at the link. These are the words of the founders of Israel. This isn't some new thing that started when Hamas appeared.


"Legally" sanctioned land theft (before Oct7):

“Deportation of over 1,000 people in favour of expanding settlements, outposts and training of Israel Defence Forces soldiers is not only a humanitarian catastrophe that could set a precedent for other communities across the West Bank, but also a clear step in de facto annexation of the occupied Palestinian territories and cementing military rule indefinitely.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...west-bank-area

Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionism Party, is the new minister of finance. In 2021, he told Arab members of the Israeli Knesset that they were “here by mistake because Ben Gurion didn’t finish the job and throw you out in 1948.”

https://truthout.org/articles/new-is...rom-palestine/


STOP. SPREADING. BULL####.

[TherapyforGlencross]

delete

[Fuzz]

At least 51 Palestinians have been killed and more than 200 wounded while waiting for UN and commercial trucks to enter the territory with desperately needed food, according to Gaza’s health ministry and a local hospital.


Palestinian witnesses said Israeli forces carried out an airstrike on a nearby home before opening fire toward the crowd in the southern city of Khan Younis on Tuesday morning. The military did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ealth-ministry


It's a good thing this Iran thing hasn't gotten in the way of indiscriminant killing and genocide being waged on Gaza. That would have been a shame if they had to give that up.


It's OK though, I hear Hitler killed a thousand Jews every time they tried to find food for survival, so by the Hitler metric, it can't possibly be genocide. It's, uhm...accidental? I can't even remember the excuse anymore, but they are for sure vermin so it doesn't really matter.

[Looch City]

Netanyahu only attacked Iran to distract from Gaza.

Now all the world is "back on Israel's side".

[IliketoPuck]

This doesn't appear to be an overly productive conversation. Seems pretty easy for us in Canada to take shots at events happening halfway around the world.

Disgust with Hamas for their actions =/= Support for Israel's response.

Both things can be, and should be, condemned.

I've not really seen many plausible solutions put forward, and certainly none recently.

For those going after Pointman for attempting to explain the Israeli position (while living in Israel currently) what would you propose as a solution that allows Israel to feel secure? Truly?

Conversely, Pointman, or others, what would you propose as a solution for Gaza to emerge as a functional entity? The current direction is blatantly not working.

For me, Israel absolutely has a great deal of blame to own up to. But so does Hamas, and the Gaza population that supports their actions. It is generational hate on both sides.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

This doesn't appear to be an overly productive conversation. Seems pretty easy for us in Canada to take shots at events happening halfway around the world.

Disgust with Hamas for their actions =/= Support for Israel's response.

Both things can be, and should be, condemned.

I've not really seen many plausible solutions put forward, and certainly none recently.

For those going after Pointman for attempting to explain the Israeli position (while living in Israel currently) what would you propose as a solution that allows Israel to feel secure? Truly?

Conversely, Pointman, or others, what would you propose as a solution for Gaza to emerge as a functional entity? The current direction is blatantly not working.

For me, Israel absolutely has a great deal of blame to own up to. But so does Hamas, and the Gaza population that supports their actions. It is generational hate on both sides.

If anyone had a solution for peace, we'd have read it by now. But a lack of a realistic plan does not justify what Israel is doing to innocent people. It's super easy to paint Gazans as Hamas, dust your hands and toss bombs, but the reality is, most people in Gaza are victims of a war they have no say in and are being slaughtered while trying to find food to survive. Put yourself in their shoes for 10 minutes, and really think about what every day is like for them. Not 10 seconds. 10 minutes. Then try to condemn them the way Israel has. It's ####ing inhuman.


So no, I don't know the solution, but I do know Israel is inflicting unimaginable suffering and killing of innocent people and children daily to justify their own safety. And I believe that is wrong. They can stop today, if they choose to. They choose instead to kill. People choose to support that. Nobody has to.

[PepsiFree]

Before we condemn genocide, we on this message board must provide a list of actionable solutions toward peace in the Middle East.

[Doctorfever]

I thought about something a while ago, but didn’t bother posting.

If we could turn back the clock to Oct 8th (obviously we can’t), having a different response to the original Hamas attacks;

Allies from around the world send troops into the region and assist Israel with the fight against the terrorists. With additional troops helping to eliminate Hamas, perhaps there could have been more precise targeting of Hamas and less bombing. Less bombs used in the combat could have decreased the civilian casualties.

This would also have came with a heavier rate of casualties of the allied forces fighting against Hamas, so far from a great idea.

I am not advocating for this idea, but I thought it was interesting to think about. And, like I said, we can’t turn back the clock.

[IliketoPuck]

No argument from me. Truly. What Israel is doing cannot be justified.

But not holding Hamas, and Gazans who supported them for decades (either implicitly or through turning a blind eye) accountable for their role in this, robs them of the agency you want them to have.

To have peace both sides need to acknowledge that the other side has the right to live in peace without fear of being attacked by the other. That starts with Hamas/Gaza leaving their "Israel into the sea" beliefs in the trash bin of history, and with Israel stopping this insane overreach and clamping down on their own internal issues which do nothing but inflame tensions.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

No argument from me. Truly. What Israel is doing cannot be justified.

But not holding Hamas, and Gazans who supported them for decades (either implicitly or through turning a blind eye) accountable for their role in this, robs them of the agency you want them to have.

To have peace both sides need to acknowledge that the other side has the right to live in peace without fear of being attacked by the other. That starts with Hamas/Gaza leaving their "Israel into the sea" beliefs in the trash bin of history, and with Israel stopping this insane overreach and clamping down on their own internal issues which do nothing but inflame tensions.

Except no one is defending Hamas, not holding them accountable, or saying anything like their beliefs are acceptable or that Israeli civilians shouldn’t get to live in peace.

The innocent civilians are the victims here, on both sides. Not the terrorist group Hamas, nor the genocidal Israeli government. Not the Gazan terrorists hiding behind children nor the Israeli terrorists murdering people in the West Bank. And not the martyrs on both sides like Pointman who believe all civilians including themselves are fair targets in a pointless war. Just the innocent civilians caught in the middle.

I get your sentiment, it’s just stating the obvious and not something that’s ever been in question. And if anything, it only seems to come up when people are tired of Israel being held accountable. Like how many times do you want to go back to October 7 when every day dozens or even hundreds more innocents die? It feels very much like not wanting to hold Israel accountable, to be honest. And now they’ve started another war.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I thought about something a while ago, but didn’t bother posting.

If we could turn back the clock to Oct 8th (obviously we can’t), having a different response to the original Hamas attacks;

Allies from around the world send troops into the region and assist Israel with the fight against the terrorists. With additional troops helping to eliminate Hamas, perhaps there could have been more precise targeting of Hamas and less bombing. Less bombs used in the combat could have decreased the civilian casualties.

This would also have came with a heavier rate of casualties of the allied forces fighting against Hamas, so far from a great idea.

I am not advocating for this idea, but I thought it was interesting to think about. And, like I said, we can’t turn back the clock.

Dude, people knew that was the better approach than a genocide and total property destruction right out of the gates. I fricken' knew it and I generally know nothing.

This post is from November 2023 lol. There are dozens like this right from the word go littered throughout the thread.

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm not calling for a fair fight at all.

I think Israel - in violation of generally accepted international protocols - should find Hamas leadership in any country on earth and literally kill them. Apparently they're living luxurious lives all around the world, or so I hear. Okay, let's get 'em. Israel has my full support to do that.

I think you need to write-off the 250 hostages. They're certainly not worth killing thousands of Palestinians over. It's too disproportionate.

The militants are hiding within the population because that's what militants need to do when they border a powerful and antagonistic military state that views them as sub-human. Do you expect them to build military bases lol? That's an absurd expectation. They would be destroyed in a day. Sorry, but that's just so dumb to expect them to be so dumb as to put a target on their military. They're spread out amongst the population out of necessity.

So how do you get them? Well, that requires patience, intelligence (spy craft, that is...not just a guy with a high IQ) and the support of the local population. You need to earn and build that support - it's a strategic failing on Israel's part that they have not built up that network within Gaza and now they're paying the price for it. And any goodwill they may have had there is definitely gone now because of idiotic, knee-jerk, sledgehammer tactics. But that's where we are, so what next?

Israel needs to immediately change their strategy. Stop dropping bombs on kids/families, for a start. Get down and dirty in a guerilla war is all they can do. Crawl around in tunnels, I guess. I mean, they were complicit in constructing the circumstances that have led to this point, so now they have a harder battle than could have been. I would hope they have sleeper agents and imbedded Israelis living amongst the population to aid in being more surgical and strategic - if they don't, then I guess you can add it to the pile of dumb stuff this government has(n't) done.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This is a goddamn lie and a load of bull#### so thick you can go choke on it.


Just ####ing admit it, like the other Israeli supporters have, at times in this thread. Israeli actions in the West Bank have, for decades, being about taking more land and more control. When they come across people resisting having their land and homes stolen, they kill them. When they come across children throwing rocks, they kill them. This has nothing to do with Hamas. It does tell you exactly what Israeli intentions are, even if you are a thick enough chud to ignore the words of the people who are actively taking the land and killing the people saying they will take the land and kill the people.


This is how it started:

https://imeu.org/article/what-leadin...bout-the-nakba


Many more quotes at the link. These are the words of the founders of Israel. This isn't some new thing that started when Hamas appeared.


"Legally" sanctioned land theft (before Oct7):



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...west-bank-area



https://truthout.org/articles/new-is...rom-palestine/


STOP. SPREADING. BULL####.

So you keep dodging the main question. If Israel is genocidal towards Arabs, as ethnicity, or Muslims, as religion, why do they let over 2 millions of Muslim Arabs live in their country?

Instead of answering this question you bring about some lists of alleged crimes committed by Israel.

Thing is, even if Israel's intention is to clear the current inhabitants for the sake of a land grab, this, although illegal, does not constitute genocide. Neither by definition, nor by history, as the point of Holocaust was not to grab land.

So do you agree now, that what's going on is not a genocide, and now you want to discuss whether it's a land grab?

[TheIronMaiden]

CAIRO/GAZA, June 17 (Reuters) - Israeli tanks fired into a crowd trying to get aid from trucks in Gaza on Tuesday, killing at least 59 people, according to medics, in one of the bloodiest incidents yet in mounting violence as desperate residents struggle for food.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ys-2025-06-17/

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So you keep dodging the main question. If Israel is genocidal towards Arabs, as ethnicity, or Muslims, as religion, why do they let over 2 millions of Muslim Arabs live un their country?

Instead of answering this question you bring about some lists of alleged crimes committed by Israel.

Thing is, even if Israel's intention is to clear the current inhabitants for the sake of a land grab, this, although illegal, does not constitute genocide. Neither by definition, nor by history, as the point of Holocaust was not to grab land.

So do you agree now, that what's going on is not a genocide, and now you want to discuss whether it's a land grab?

You are under the mistaken assumption that genocide means eliminating all members of a group, and have also expanded the definition of who is being targeted from Palestinians to Muslim Arabs. I suspect next you will declare Palestinians don't exist as a people, which is why you chose Muslim Arabs.

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition


What Israel is doing is, by definition, genocide.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Before we condemn genocide, we on this message board must provide a list of actionable solutions toward peace in the Middle East.

And they must be full solutions that result in everlasting peace, or they're in no way valid.

Coming up with solutions like "give the Palestinians food" or "stop indiscriminately bombing and murdering people" or "you don't need to level every single building and the entire city's infrastructure" aren't actual solutions, so until you figure out a real solution, you shouldn't post from halfway around the world.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are under the mistaken assumption that genocide means eliminating all members of a group, and have also expanded the definition of who is being targeted from Palestinians to Muslim Arabs. I suspect next you will declare Palestinians don't exist as a people, which is why you chose Muslim Arabs.


https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition


What Israel is doing is, by definition, genocide.

The "in part" part was introduced because Hitler was looking to eliminate all European Jews, rather than all Jews in the world. When taken literally, it could make killing one person a genocide, because one person is a part of a nation, ethnicity and religion. Or killing soldiers of an enemy army is genocide because all members of an army belong to the same nation and, usually, race and ethnicity.

This way, every war is a two-way genocide. For example, Russian-Ukraine war is genocide because Ukrainians are killing Russians, intending to destroy a part of a national group that are Russians, and Russians are genocding Ukrainians. Also Russians, unlike Israel, actually did a formal land grab.

So, applying definition in such a loose way may help you frame Israel's actions as genocide, but conversely bereft this word of its original horrible meaning.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The "in part" part was introduced because Hitler was looking to eliminate all European Jews, rather than all Jews in the world. When taken literally, it could make killing one person a genocide, because one person is a part of a nation, ethnicity and religion. Or killing soldiers of an enemy army is genocide because all members of an army belong to the same nation and, usually, race and ethnicity.

This way, every war is a two-way genocide. For example, Russian-Ukraine war is genocide because Ukrainians are killing Russians, intending to destroy a part of a national group that are Russians, and Russians are genocding Ukrainians. Also Russians, unlike Israel, actually did a formal land grab.

So, applying definition in such a loose way may help you frame Israel's actions as genocide, but conversely bereft this word of its original horrible meaning.

Ah, there it is. Only Jews can be genocided.


Also, it's not my definition, it's the UN, and others. In fact, why don't you do this. Why don't YOU go find a definition of genocide that wouldn't apply to what is happening. See if you can find 3.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I thought about something a while ago, but didn’t bother posting.

If we could turn back the clock to Oct 8th (obviously we can’t), having a different response to the original Hamas attacks;

Allies from around the world send troops into the region and assist Israel with the fight against the terrorists. With additional troops helping to eliminate Hamas, perhaps there could have been more precise targeting of Hamas and less bombing. Less bombs used in the combat could have decreased the civilian casualties.

This would also have came with a heavier rate of casualties of the allied forces fighting against Hamas, so far from a great idea.

I am not advocating for this idea, but I thought it was interesting to think about. And, like I said, we can’t turn back the clock.

Why would Israel have needed allies to do this? They had the means to do so on their own and chose the path they took.

Had Israel taken the ground invasion approach they would likely have way more support from their allies today.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Looch City

Netanyahu only attacked Iran to distract from Gaza.

Now all the world is "back on Israel's side".

The world != G7