SCF: Florida Panthers (A3) vs Edmonton Oilers (P3) - PANTHERS WIIIIN 4-2!!!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The guy said we knew Marky wasn’t a cup winning goaltender. You argue and move the goalposts to say he was a number one

Well, sure, he became a number one in Vancouver . He got number one deployment here

He really has only had one above average year in the last 5 seasons, since leaving Vancouver

So he isn’t a cup winning goalie, correct?

Also, funny how some goalies can get by on reputation. It’s not available to every goalie, but to some, it is

No one is a cup winner until they win a cup, which isn’t an indicator of previous season or future season success. It’s a useless comment.

[Jaydee]

reverse sweep for the panthers incoming for extra chaos

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

We literally did that with Rasmus Andersson. Kept him this season because we were focused on rewarding guys in the room and going on a run.

It was a stupid, mindless decision that shows the organization remains rudderless.

Or the offers for him weren’t worth it for what they value him at.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

Or the offers for him weren’t worth it for what they value him at.

Monahammer just wanted them to lose games. He doesn't seem to care what they get for trading vets.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No one is a cup winner until they win a cup, which isn’t an indicator of previous season or future season success. It’s a useless comment.

Sure, obviously

We agree that the Flames are willing to move on from veterans and the optics of trading a number one goalie are significant.

He was given number one minutes and delivered average results here, so few tears were shed when he moved on.

Fortunately due to his reputation (which exceeds his actual performance), it in fact turned out quite brilliantly for the Flames

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The Flames have won a total of TWO playoff series in the last 20 years. What a great success story. I am sure we should keep doing what we have always done!

Meanwhile people are making fun of the Sharks for tanking who now have a franchise player to build around. And a couple other really good young players as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they were a contender in 4 years time while we are still spinning the wheels.

It's just crazy that people don't want to tank for a chance to actually have some playoffs success down the road.

Well a few things
1. I think it is too simplistic to say they've done the same thing for 20 years. There have been clearly different approaches during 2 decades. The success hasn't followed but it's just very shallow thinking to say "they've been doing the same thing for 20 years". And I think they are doing things differently now.
2. It's not that people don't want to tank. I'd be fine with it. But I don't think it's the ONLY path. And at some point i accept the reality that they aren't going to totally tank. I think they thought they would be much worse last season though and surprised themselves. But I'd be fine with a complete tank job, but at some point I accept they aren't going to do that instead of bashing my head against the same wall over and over and over again.

If I was that opposed to the approach of the team, I would probably find a different team to cheer for rather than complain about the same thing until the end of time.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No, that's insane levels of risk aversion. Wolf was a top performer in every league he played in. Multiple years as the top goalie in the AHL, the second best league on earth. Everyone here knew what he was. If the Flames didn't, then they need new pro scouts.

Markstrom is a pedestrian goalie who collapses under pressure. Jonas Hiller was better.

And serious questions about if he had the physical attributes to succeed. There are stunningly few goalies his size that have been able to excel at the NHL level.
Let's not pretend there wasn't risk.

[kevman]

I don't mean to change the subject away from the Flames, but if we're going to keep talking about "squeaking in" let's not forget that the model franchise Oilers being referenced finished 6th in the West this year (and only 5 points clear of the lowly Flames). If not for their insane 3 on 3 record, they would have missed the playoffs this year. The Oilers this year are the perfect example of "just make the playoffs and see what happens".

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Monahammer just wanted them to lose games. He doesn't seem to care what they get for trading vets.

Et tu, Cicero? Untrue, but this is a fallacy.

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

Or the offers for him weren’t worth it for what they value him at.

Sticking to your value is only useful if there's a broad market, and will eventually result in you coming down, at least a bit, to meet whatever the top bid ultimately is.

If the flames assigned a higher value to him than any other team in the league, well that's bad negotiating. They missed the opportunity to maximize his value, and the value from now is only likely to decline. This is because of his remaining contract length and the diminishing value of contract retention (also because he played horribly in the last 6 months of the season, but asides from that.)

You are describing a problem with our management. We waited too long because we had an inflated sense of value.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I’m obsessed with the Flames acquiring premium, top 5 player in the league talent. The type you need to actually do something and not crash out in the first round. To do that you need to draft high, and to do THAT you need to bottom out. Which wouldn’t be fun, but theres this thing called “short term pain for long term gain”. Why is this such an anathema to everyone, we did it ten years ago and it got us most of our best talent. And if we had got MacKinnon, or been bad in 2015 instead of 2014, who knows who the last ten years would have gone. If you like finishing in 9th every year and drafting a hardworking kid from the W 18th overall then that’s your right but some of us would like to see a 3rd playoff round sometime before we die.

*Without* bottoming out the Flames have acquired a superstar goalie and potential superstar defenseman, and couple other really good ones.

Ffs, Bobby Orr was the last d-man to do what Parekh did in the OHL. Is that not elite enough?

I think you're fixated on the previous Flames philosophy while being impatient around what the team is currently doing and you aren't acknowledging that the Flames have changed up their approach to focus on accruing youth with upside while selling off vets who can't be a part of what they're trying to build.

That's two "elite" checkboxes marked off at two key positions.

I'm pretty sure with 4 firsts in the next two drafts including an unprotected Vegas pick that we can hold off for the moment on the "need to bottom out" narrative. They'll be putting these picks towards the best forward or center available. Let's see what they end up with.

I find most people desperate to suck are historians just looking at what GMs like treliving and Sutter did, burning every 1st rounder they could to further the agenda of making the playoffs.

We're not doing that any more. Time to get caught up to current events.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well a few things
1. I think it is too simplistic to say they've done the same thing for 20 years. There have been clearly different approaches during 2 decades. The success hasn't followed but it's just very shallow thinking to say "they've been doing the same thing for 20 years". And I think they are doing things differently now.
2. It's not that people don't want to tank. I'd be fine with it. But I don't think it's the ONLY path. And at some point i accept the reality that they aren't going to totally tank. I think they thought they would be much worse last season though and surprised themselves. But I'd be fine with a complete tank job, but at some point I accept they aren't going to do that instead of bashing my head against the same wall over and over and over again.

If I was that opposed to the approach of the team, I would probably find a different team to cheer for rather than complain about the same thing until the end of time.

Somewhere along the lines of "doing the same thing for 20 years" the Flames piled up some high draft picks, drafted Monahan, Tkachuk, and Bennet, found gold in Gaudreau, traded for Lindholm, had the best line in hockey, and finished first in the West. It just so happens that our top end talent, and I'm going to call it top end talent since it was the best line in hockey that season, couldn't get it done in the playoffs.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If I was that opposed to the approach of the team, I would probably find a different team to cheer for rather than complain about the same thing until the end of time.

Yes, well, some of us are wired differently there. I cheer because my father does, and I have grown in my fanhood since a young boy. I am not going to just abandon and cheer for the penguins or something because I disagree with the direction management takes. This is a lifetime commitment to me, just like hating the oilers.

So yeah, I get frustrated when it's obvious they won't take the path they should. I am actual a convert to this path myself, but the evidence is mounting that this is the way to do it in this era of the league and i find it outrageous that we want to ignore it.

[dino7c]

There are 5-10 threads to complain about the Flames past moves and ones they haven't even made yet

IMO we should get this one back on topic...Stanley cup finals. Panthers should have won last night, blew it...but can still get the split which would be huge going home. The style of play in the 2nd period and start of OT is the way to go, Oilers were struggling with their forecheck

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The Flames have won a total of TWO playoff series in the last 20 years. What a great success story. I am sure we should keep doing what we have always done!

Meanwhile people are making fun of the Sharks for tanking who now have a franchise player to build around. And a couple other really good young players as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they were a contender in 4 years time while we are still spinning the wheels.

It's just crazy that people don't want to tank for a chance to actually have some playoffs success down the road.

It seems like Flames fans have a particular aversion to even the idea of bottoming out properly like essentially every Stanley Cup champ of the last 25 years except for St Louis and LA. My theory is it extends from the best player out of our last rebuild being a guy we got in the 4th round, so maybe people think it wasn’t necessary, and mainly how blatantly the Oilers tanked and obviously everything they do is bad and gross and terrible and we can’t do that. Guess that includes going to Stanley Cup finals and all in likelihood, winning one as well.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by kevman

Somewhere along the lines of "doing the same thing for 20 years" the Flames piled up some high draft picks, drafted Monahan, Tkachuk, and Bennet, found gold in Gaudreau, traded for Lindholm, had the best line in hockey, and finished first in the West. It just so happens that our top end talent, and I'm going to call it top end talent since it was the best line in hockey that season, couldn't get it done in the playoffs.

This was also the only time where we kept out picks and drafted high for multiple years in a row.

Monahan 6th, Bennett 4th, Tkachuk 6th. That team was built drafting performers at the top of the draft. We should optimize our chances to replicate that.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

And I don't think you'll ever get a team to direct its players to purposefully throw games.

Will never happen, and it would tarnish the team.

So I don't know what team tank wants them to do, other than what they've already been doing for 2 years.

[Beninho]

A lot of sports organizations are deemed successful when most of their success is down to pure luck and lottery balls. Flames have had horrible luck with regards to bottoming out, even when they spent a whole year trying to do it the Oilers still out tanked them in 2014 after getting 3 first overalls. Flames were built to suck in 2015 and somehow snuck in, Oilers were supposed to be better in 2015 and were horrendous and boom got the best offensive prospect maybe of all time.

It’s not like a franchise like the Penguins is some drafting powerhouse, they just got absurdly lucky with Mario, then Sid and got Malkin at 2 when in almost any other draft he is first. Penguins have no dynasty if they got the 3rd pick that year and draft Cam Barker. Hell i’d even argue the Penguins are a pretty sub par organization based on their inability to draft in the last 10 years. They got insanely lucky and so did the Oilers. Pure luck and it sucks how it happened for the Oilers but that’s North American sports. Flames just have historically never gotten the fluke luck needed to win, they were like one number off of moving up last year too and didn’t. We can argue about if the Flames need to bottom out till we are blue in the face but some people need to recognize that we could have the Einstein of GM’s and even they would need a lot of luck to win. Sports is not fair and never will be, that’s what makes us a bunch of sickos for loving this #### but I can’t stop being a fan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Et tu, Cicero? Untrue, but this is a fallacy.



Sticking to your value is only useful if there's a broad market, and will eventually result in you coming down, at least a bit, to meet whatever the top bid ultimately is.

If the flames assigned a higher value to him than any other team in the league, well that's bad negotiating. They missed the opportunity to maximize his value, and the value from now is only likely to decline. This is because of his remaining contract length and the diminishing value of contract retention (also because he played horribly in the last 6 months of the season, but asides from that.)

You are describing a problem with our management. We waited too long because we had an inflated sense of value.

Exactly how do you know this?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Beninho

A lot of sports organizations are deemed successful when most of their success is down to pure luck and lottery balls.

To your point - didn't the Flames have the same odds as the Pens in the Crosby lottery?

[dino7c]

Flames missed the boat on Markstom according to the usuals suspects this time last year...ended up with 18th overall and Bahl

Some people just want to be angry

Anyway about that Cup final