[Article] Calgary Flames: Alone at the bottom

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Haha yeah man playoff success? What a wildly esoteric metric to use in a league where the goal is playoff success. I prefer to measure it by how much fun everyone is having and in that method I'd hope that we're utterly dominant.

100%. Just massive amounts of lunatic level cope going on here.

Why don't we just ice the best looking team? Or the team that does the most philanthropy work? If our goal is to be nice let's optimize for it then. Admit that winning is secondary.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Haha yeah man playoff success? What a wildly esoteric metric to use in a league where the goal is playoff success. I prefer to measure it by how much fun everyone is having and in that method I'd hope that we're utterly dominant.

Well most longtime Flames fans are pretty conditioned to the fact that the playoffs is for other NHL teams and if the Flames do make it, it's usually just for a quick cup of coffee. There are plenty of variables in play such as small market, ownership, management, coaching, players, etc. The lack of success in the playoffs does feel like bit of a curse. The players and coaches change over the decades but it seems Flames teams (save for 2004) just never have the resolve to win even a first round matchup when they have home ice advantage.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well most longtime Flames fans are pretty conditioned to the fact that the playoffs is for other NHL teams and if the Flames do make it, it's usually just for a quick cup of coffee. There are plenty of variables in play such as small market, ownership, management, coaching, players, etc. I will say the lack of success in the playoffs does feel like bit of a curse. The players and coaches change over the decades but it seems Flames teams (save for 2004) just never have the resolve to win even a first round matchup even when they have home ice advantage.

The curse is ownership who believes they're the smartest people in the room/ league. They are unable to see the writing plain as day on the wall about how to build a competitive team in this NHL, and unwilling to replicate teams who have found success.

My personal opinion is this ultimately a massive slight against the fan base. They don't have faith that people will keep supporting them. It's why I'm so vocal constantly about the need to do it. I will continue to support through a rebuild.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The curse is ownership who believes they're the smartest people in the room/ league. They are unable to see the writing plain as day on the wall about how to build a competitive team in this NHL, and unwilling to replicate teams who have found success.

My personal opinion is this ultimately a massive slight against the fan base. They don't have faith that people will keep supporting them. It's why I'm so vocal constantly about the need to do it. I will continue to support through a rebuild.

Pretty intense threading of the needle there to have two division championships but only one playoff series win.

I wonder where that line is?

Good enough to win a division twice, but purposely making the team not good enough to win at playoff time.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pretty intense threading of the needle there to have two division championships but only one playoff series win.

I wonder where that line is?

Good enough to win a division twice, but purposely making the team not good enough to win at playoff time.

Just look at how often President's Trophy winners win the cup.

The regular season is basically pointless, as long as you win enough to make the playoffs. But it's not just a "Sneak in and Win" thing. It's a get in while having the roster properly built thing. It's about having superstar talent to get you through the tough moments and take over games.

To get the superstar talent, you need to bottom out. Draft top 5 2 or 3 times. Then you pick up and build as much as possible around those top guys. The time we came closest to doing this was the Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk era of drafting. And it's the time we were closest to building a competitor.

Stanley Cup > Conference Champion >>>>>>>>>>>> President's Trophy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Win Division points %.

[Calgary4LIfe]

https://champsorchumps.us/team/nhl/calgary-flames


For anyone who thinks that the article has a specific agenda, maybe go and click through every team's page. Look at their report cards. Judge for yourself.


I liked Treliving for a number of years as a GM. However, I started wanting him removed after so much 'nothingness'. His tenure was a decade of nothingness. Not horrible and embarrassing, but definitely not good either. Sure, there were 2 great regular seasons. There were some interesting and exciting moves that he made. There was the unexpected 2015 team (that I give him credit for as he was the GM). I am not going to try and paint a darker picture than necessary here - there were lots of things to cheer for.



However, simply go through and compare the Flames with other teams. The Flames were definitely not the worst, but I think they were amongst the worst.


Since 2015:
The longest consecutive playoff streak was 2 seasons. TWO!
Made the playoffs 5 times, and this is the 6th out (and third in a row).
Made the 2nd round twice. Won a grand total of 2 games in the 2nd round.
0 Conference finals.
0 Finals.


What grade would you assign this? They gave it a D+. It seemed harsh at first, but then take your time and compare this grade to other teams. See the results of the other teams. I grudgingly agree with their value now.


I think it is 100% fine to be both a fan and to be critical of the team that you are cheering for. I don't think I am being overly critical when I say that this team has been in the bottom 1/4 of the teams in the NHL when looking at their 20 years' worth of success, or 25, or 30 years.



It took the Flames 15 years to return to the Stanley Cup Finals after winning their first and only cup. It has been 21 years since the '04 run. It is an easily defensible argument to make when saying: "Since 2004, the Flames have been one of the least successful organizations in the NHL." Love the team, and there are definitely some vivid and wonderful memories since '04, but yeah, it is impossible to argue against the notion that the Flames are one of the worst teams in the NHL and have been for some time. Every 16 years, your favourite team 'should' be making the finals. That's the law of averages with their being 16 teams on each side. Some good teams take more than their fair share, and some bad teams never come close. What does that make Calgary?



So the whole "At least the Flames have never had a top 3 pick" is not something that I really care about. Had this team been a top-end team (even without winning a cup - but had multiple Stanley Cup appearances since '04, were a legitimate threat year-over-year, or were by every metric other than actually winning a Stanley Cup a 'top team', then the entire "top 3 pick" thing would be worthy of thumping your chest about. As it stands now, it may just be the underlying reason at the lack of success this team has experienced rather than something to be proud of. At any rate, there are no asterisks for crappy teams - even ones that embarrassingly tank - when they win the cup. Nobody pointed at Tampa for picking high when they won their cups. Conversely, if the Flames somehow win a cup without still drafting in the top 3, they don't get bonus points or even a mention of it anywhere.


Find a way to bring in the best players, even if you have to take a step back from trying to win. Nobility is the luxury of a winner, not a loser. The Flames are not attracting new fans because they haven't picked in the top 3 ever. Pittsburgh sure increased their fan base when they purposefully 'threw' a season to get Lemieux. No asterisk on the cups they won with him. I definitely don't want the Flames to sink so low and win at any costs - including pulling an Edmonton and sign questionable players and managers. No, winning is not worth that, and it is not 'win at all costs'.


It just would be damn nice to see the :Flames draft a number of players high and watch a young core group with superstars grow up and develop, and lift us out of our seats with excitement. It would be nice to know that your team is going to be a playoff team in the off-season, rather than 'wait and hope'. It would be nice to cheer for Calgary in the conference finals and Stanley Cup. I never expect a team I cheer for to win, but it would be nice to see them come close. This team drafts and develops so well, but is always missing enough quality at the top. Imagine there is enough quality at the top?



Either way, I will continue watching and cheering for this team win or lose. That's part of being a fan, and not just someone on and off the bandwagon. It also gives me the right to be critical of the franchise too. FWIW, I do believe that Conroy is actively planning on drafting high, and last season was unexpected. Let's see what he does this off-season. I have a lot of faith in Conroy. I also have enough faith in Edwards that he will allow Conroy the freedom implement and follow-through with his plan.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Nobility is the luxury of a winner, not a loser.

C4L with an absolute banger. Even better than normal. This should be stickied.

Many excellent lines but IMO this is the chef's kiss on top.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

https://champsorchumps.us/team/nhl/calgary-flames


For anyone who thinks that the article has a specific agenda, maybe go and click through every team's page. Look at their report cards. Judge for yourself.

Sounds about right.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Haha yeah man playoff success? What a wildly esoteric metric to use in a league where the goal is playoff success. I prefer to measure it by how much fun everyone is having and in that method I'd hope that we're utterly dominant.

The difference being the inclusion of top 5 picks as a set of criteria. Playoff success - sure. Combining it with top 5 picks? That's a little more... targeted.

[littlereddevil]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The difference being the inclusion of top 5 picks as a set of criteria. Playoff success - sure. Combining it with top 5 picks? That's a little more... targeted.

Yeah, exactly it introduces another variable and some bias to their analysis.

Take for example Buffalo and Detroit. Both recent teams who have had prolonged playoff droughts, and a number of high draft picks. Would you call their abundance of picks a success story? Buffalo is practically the farm team of the NHL and haven't been in the playoffs since 2008. I've lost track of the number of rebuilds they've gone through. Clearly their abundance of high picks hasn't been a success as it hasn't translated into playoff success (let alone any playoff appearances). This website makes a lot of assumptions that high draft picks = automatic playoff success and has created a false equivalence.

Where do you draw the line and decide to arbitrarily analyze each team? The past 5 years? The past 20 years? What about from 2015-2020?

Maybe this sounds like a cope but the jury is still out on the current Flames management group. We were suddenly forced into a rebuild situation after the previous one failed, give it some time.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Just look at how often President's Trophy winners win the cup.

The regular season is basically pointless, as long as you win enough to make the playoffs. But it's not just a "Sneak in and Win" thing. It's a get in while having the roster properly built thing. It's about having superstar talent to get you through the tough moments and take over games.

To get the superstar talent, you need to bottom out. Draft top 5 2 or 3 times. Then you pick up and build as much as possible around those top guys. The time we came closest to doing this was the Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk era of drafting. And it's the time we were closest to building a competitor.

Stanley Cup > Conference Champion >>>>>>>>>>>> President's Trophy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Win Division points %.

And you're thinking winning the division twice in a handful of years is "sneaking in"?

[kevman]

It's odd to me that in the NHL the only thing that matters to some fans is the cup where as other sports, particularly soccer, put a lot of emphasis on being the league champ too.

Calgary's lack of playoff success is largely an anomaly IMO. The Flames are hardly a model franchise, but they're typically competitive year over year and that's what gets most fans in the seats.

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by Bingo

When you are a year out and people are still raving about it you nailed the draft.

Call it a check mark.

But now it's development, who to retain, and the uneven progress of each player that will either turn a great draft into great players, or not.

Our drafting appears to be the one area where the Flames are amongst the NHL elite of late.

This is the area that organizations 100% can control through funding and scout retention, and isn't related to cap spending, the tax situation, the coaching style, climate, or market size.

It's a clever team that leans heavily into it to make the 3rd and 4th (and 7th) rounders count.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And you're thinking winning the division twice in a handful of years is "sneaking in"?

Never mind they led the western conference and were tied for second in the league in one of those years.

[Monahammer]

The Soccer leagues are set up so differently that the comparison is pointless. But, ask any club fan whether they would rather their team placed top 2 in the premier or if they won in the UEFA Champions league.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And you're thinking winning the division twice in a handful of years is "sneaking in"?

Nope, I am just laying out the case against the typical "just sneak in and win" argument that crops up sometimes.

I am saying winning the division is a pointless stat that isn't worthy of tracking, because it doesn't align with playoff success and ultimately chances of winning the cup. The President's Trophy is an even more extreme example, which IMO is more worthy of tracking at least but still has very little relevance on cup winning chances.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by kevman

Never mind they led the western conference and were tied for second in the league in one of those years.

Let's hang some of those banners up boys! SECOND IN THE LEAUGE IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WOO!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by kevman

It's odd to me that in the NHL the only thing that matters to some fans is the cup where as other sports, particularly soccer, put a lot of emphasis on being the league champ too.

Calgary's lack of playoff success is largely an anomaly IMO. The Flames are hardly a model franchise, but they're typically competitive year over year and that's what gets most fans in the seats.

I’m the opposite. I don’t know what sustains supporters of EPL teams who have no chance of winning a championship. Roots in the community and ‘it was always my dad’s team’ loyalty? The moral victory of beating one of the top teams in a match? The thrill of not being relegated?

In the pre-cap NHL, when Calgary was becoming little more than a farm team for big-market franchises, a lot of people in this city lost interest in the team. Without a realistic path to a Cup, it just seemed pointless.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

https://champsorchumps.us/team/nhl/calgary-flames

Well said Calgary4LIfe.

[Terradude]

I see this kind of chatter a lot from the "Team Tank" who use their view of stats to argue that the teams need to crater, grab a bunch of stars and then ride them to success. Their statistics say thats the only way to build a winning team.

Lies...Damn lies and statistics.

My view is that you never accept losing. if you do, it will permeate your team and you'll be forever cursed. You need to be damn lucky, know how to build a team and damn good while drafting. Were B Point, Datsyuk and Zetterberg high picks? Deploy the best scouts you have, send them everywhere and then listen to them when you're at the table. You need talent...high end talent but you also need grit to win in the playoffs. You also need to be lucky with injuries and when they come, you need a deep bench/farm from which to draw.

I think the flames could have caused a fair bit of damage this year if they only had one point more. Hopefully that fire will continue to burn next year and a few more good picks like we had last year and we won't have this conversation too many years in a row.