[Article] Calgary Flames: Alone at the bottom

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

Since the 90s, other than that magical run in 2004, you are pretty much guaranteed the Flames will not make the playoffs or they will be immediately eliminated. They've changed coaches, players, and GMs and that remains consistent.

Years ago, I stopped going to games and now I barely pay attention.

I don't know what is left to change that will make things different. Maybe the Montreal hockey gods really did curse them when they won the Cup there back in 89?

Dollar Bill Wirtz handing the team over to Rocky brought Chicago back...

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

This might be just a cope, but I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team that just bottomed out and won a lottery or got a very high top 2 draft pick. Yes, that usually leads to more success, but it seems like such a short cut way to winning. Like can a Pens fan actually feel the team did something extraordinary, they just lucked into drafting Crosby. I would argue the season the Flames guys had is just as impressive considering everything than some lottery team winning the Cup.

Take a step back and think of it less about "building a winner".

Don't you want to see the best players in the world play for your team? Since Iggy and Kipper left, has Calgary been able to say that?

From a marketing standpoint, well there's a reason we're the second most popular team in the province. Our marketable stars were Gaudreau and Tkachuk...they walked for a few million.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

This might be just a cope, but I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team that just bottomed out and won a lottery or got a very high top 2 draft pick. Yes, that usually leads to more success, but it seems like such a short cut way to winning. Like can a Pens fan actually feel the team did something extraordinary, they just lucked into drafting Crosby. I would argue the season the Flames guys had is just as impressive considering everything than some lottery team winning the Cup.

100% pure cope. If you get a player like Crosby or McDavid, fans don’t care what it took to get them. At most, it’s seen as the reward for sacrifice.

Flames ownership isn’t willing to make that sacrifice and we’ve all seen where that gets them. The reality is that there will likely not be another deep run or franchise altering player until Edwards kicks the bucket. So by all means get comfy cheering for just making the playoffs and being done by round 2, because that’s the bar this organization has set for itself.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Groot

Could not care less. According to the article, Flames made the playoffs 11 out of 20 seasons, and we all know a few they fought to the bitter end of the season a few times just to miss by an inch. So say about 75% of the last 20 seasons have produced quality entertainment. For me personally, that's fantastic.

To each their own, but I watch hockey for entertainment and to me there's nothing entertaining about watching a garbage team scrape together 20 wins in a season so they can draft a stud and then hopefully not suck in a few years.

If the Flames never win a Cup or even make a Cup finals again in my lifetime, I'm not going to be looking back on my life with any sort of regret. I pity anyone that does. Go Flames Go, thanks for the ride.

I'd add the article is defining franchise success solely on playoff success and ignoring the regular season completely. Calgary is 13th over that same period in regular season points. That's not great, but it's not the bottom. For comparison, the Oilers are 27th since the lock out in regular season points.

Fun fact, the Canucks are 12th in points over that period and the only Canadian team to have more regular season success since the lock out than the Flames. And they only have 1 more point than the Flames over that time.

[icarus]

I guess I might as well put this here: since the Flames were last in the SCF the London Knights have won three Memorial Cups in a 60 team CHL, one in each decade. (That's not really an indictment of the Flames, just really impressive for London.)

[Strange Brew]

CHL not really the level playing field that the NHL is. Parity has hit the NFL, NBA and NHL pretty hard, so difficult to sustain success organizationally, really based on finding a star player or two and hang onto them as long as you can.

Will Florida be competing for Cups in 10 years? Entirely random IMO.

[icarus]

I'm curious how the CHL has more disparity than the NHL, especially considering you have maximum four seasons for any given player on your roster.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think a 45 year summary is interesting to compare franchises and success rates. You can't ignore it.

But when it gets applied to the current team I always roll my eyes.

What are they doing now? Is it different than what we've done in the past? Do we like the current GM? Are they doing anything right?

The team moved on from UFAs, moved a starting goaltender, didn't spend a huge amount of idle cap space, and completely nailed the 2024 draft.

Hopefully those are steps towards changing the next few years when compared to the last 45.

They traded UFAs who refused to sign. Do you really give them that much credit for that? What was the alternative? Keep them and lose them for nothing?

I like the Markstrom move and wish we would see more of those types of moves. Tougher decisions. But again I feel like Markstrom had one foot out the door after the failed trade and he wanted out. We also had a goalie logjam.

This year they sat on their hands and did nothing. Even Brad gained picks in the year the Flames surprised and made the playoffs. Not a fan of the team doing nothing for the future this year.

This year the obvious move in Andersson. I'll be disappointed if he is signed. But again another UFA so pretty easy decision if he won't sign or the ask is unreasonable.

Would love to see them move some of the other vets this year though. If the Flames truly did plan on tanking and Wolf prevented it this year then make a few more moves this year in that direction. The team was propped up by vets who are not part of the future

And how long are they willing to be patient? That is my biggest fear as a fan. They might be willing to do the right things for a couple years but I think will see an attempt to speed things up sooner than later. I feel like teams shouldn't even consider speeding things up until you have a solid young core in place to build around. For the Flames I think that's at least another top line forward or two. That's assuming Wolf and Parekh are the real deal. A top line shutdown D would also be ideal.

Moves like Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, just already feel like moves where they want to speed things up but try to sell were getting younger. Accumulating third line guys at this point is a waste of assets to me. I'd rather have a couple extra 2nd round picks instead of those guys. Guys like that are a dime a dozen you can find easily at any point. Give your scouts more opportunities to hit in this building phase.

This offseason will be interesting to see the path they take.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I am with you here but I guess I’ll wait to say they nailed the 2024 draft until we can measure in NHL results.

When you are a year out and people are still raving about it you nailed the draft.

Call it a check mark.

But now it's development, who to retain, and the uneven progress of each player that will either turn a great draft into great players, or not.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hackey

They traded UFAs who refused to sign. Do you really give them that much credit for that? What was the alternative? Keep them and lose them for nothing?

I like the Markstrom move and wish we would see more of those types of moves. Tougher decisions. But again I feel like Markstrom had one foot out the door after the failed trade and he wanted out. We also had a goalie logjam.

This year they sat on their hands and did nothing. Even Brad gained picks in the year the Flames surprised and made the playoffs. Not a fan of the team doing nothing for the future this year.

This year the obvious move in Andersson. I'll be disappointed if he is signed. But again another UFA so pretty easy decision if he won't sign or the ask is unreasonable.

Would love to see them move some of the other vets this year though. If the Flames truly did plan on tanking and Wolf prevented it this year then make a few more moves this year in that direction. The team was propped up by vets who are not part of the future

And how long are they willing to be patient? That is my biggest fear as a fan. They might be willing to do the right things for a couple years but I think will see an attempt to speed things up sooner than later. I feel like teams shouldn't even consider speeding things up until you have a solid young core in place to build around. For the Flames I think that's at least another top line forward or two. That's assuming Wolf and Parekh are the real deal. A top line shutdown D would also be ideal.

Moves like Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, just already feel like moves where they want to speed things up but try to sell were getting younger. Accumulating third line guys at this point is a waste of assets to me. I'd rather have a couple extra 2nd round picks instead of those guys. Guys like that are a dime a dozen you can find easily at any point. Give your scouts more opportunities to hit in this building phase.

This offseason will be interesting to see the path they take.

Seems like we do this argument (not you and I) every 7 days.

I don't think it's fair to say they wanted to sign every one of those players, at least not with limits and parameters.

They had lines in the sand and wouldn't cross them and made decisions.

Zadorov and Toffoli were term. Tanev was a term issue. Lindholm wanted too much.

Hanifin they wanted to sign, but he wouldn't.

I only see Hanifin in that category of the only reason they didn't resign him was because he didn't want to be here.

That's how I remember it. Not the "please sign, we'll give you whatever you want!" angle with 7 straight players saying no thanks.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by Hackey

They traded UFAs who refused to sign. Do you really give them that much credit for that? What was the alternative? Keep them and lose them for nothing?

I like the Markstrom move and wish we would see more of those types of moves. Tougher decisions. But again I feel like Markstrom had one foot out the door after the failed trade and he wanted out. We also had a goalie logjam.

This year they sat on their hands and did nothing. Even Brad gained picks in the year the Flames surprised and made the playoffs. Not a fan of the team doing nothing for the future this year.

This year the obvious move in Andersson. I'll be disappointed if he is signed. But again another UFA so pretty easy decision if he won't sign or the ask is unreasonable.

Would love to see them move some of the other vets this year though. If the Flames truly did plan on tanking and Wolf prevented it this year then make a few more moves this year in that direction. The team was propped up by vets who are not part of the future

And how long are they willing to be patient? That is my biggest fear as a fan. They might be willing to do the right things for a couple years but I think will see an attempt to speed things up sooner than later. I feel like teams shouldn't even consider speeding things up until you have a solid young core in place to build around. For the Flames I think that's at least another top line forward or two. That's assuming Wolf and Parekh are the real deal. A top line shutdown D would also be ideal.

Moves like Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, just already feel like moves where they want to speed things up but try to sell were getting younger. Accumulating third line guys at this point is a waste of assets to me. I'd rather have a couple extra 2nd round picks instead of those guys. Guys like that are a dime a dozen you can find easily at any point. Give your scouts more opportunities to hit in this building phase.

This offseason will be interesting to see the path they take.

Agreed. My concern is the Flames are adding depth players before they've established a young core. As though they're attempting to prop up and support the veterans we have in Backs, Kadri, and Huberdeau. It seems so short sighted and typical for this ownership group.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

This might be just a cope, but I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team that just bottomed out and won a lottery or got a very high top 2 draft pick. Yes, that usually leads to more success, but it seems like such a short cut way to winning. Like can a Pens fan actually feel the team did something extraordinary, they just lucked into drafting Crosby. I would argue the season the Flames guys had is just as impressive considering everything than some lottery team winning the Cup.

I used to feel like this too. In 2012 I was adamant that what the Oilers were doing, on purpose or by failure, was essentially taking the easy road.

Flash forward 10+ years of mediocrity, and I have changed my tune. I want my franchise players again. I want my 1000+ game, 1000+ point star centre. I want to see my team compete for the Cup, even if they don't win, and consistently make the playoffs soundly for 5+ years.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by kevman

I'd add the article is defining franchise success solely on playoff success

Well, that and, for some reason, top five draft picks.

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, pretty obscure criteria set - feels like there may have been an agenda there

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, pretty obscure criteria set - feels like there may have been an agenda there

The agenda is to generate clicks by writing a lazy article that reinforces what people already know and think.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Groot

Could not care less. According to the article, Flames made the playoffs 11 out of 20 seasons, and we all know a few they fought to the bitter end of the season a few times just to miss by an inch. So say about 75% of the last 20 seasons have produced quality entertainment. For me personally, that's fantastic.

To each their own, but I watch hockey for entertainment and to me there's nothing entertaining about watching a garbage team scrape together 20 wins in a season so they can draft a stud and then hopefully not suck in a few years.

If the Flames never win a Cup or even make a Cup finals again in my lifetime, I'm not going to be looking back on my life with any sort of regret. I pity anyone that does. Go Flames Go, thanks for the ride.

Counter argument. The rebuild was fun and watching us draft high picks like Bennet, Tkachuk and Monahan was very exciting. Drafting higher would have been even more exciting.

Watching a sorry old veteran team chase 8th is not exciting.

[ResAlien]

Haha yeah man playoff success? What a wildly esoteric metric to use in a league where the goal is playoff success. I prefer to measure it by how much fun everyone is having and in that method I'd hope that we're utterly dominant.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Hackey

And how long are they willing to be patient? That is my biggest fear as a fan. They might be willing to do the right things for a couple years but I think will see an attempt to speed things up sooner than later. I feel like teams shouldn't even consider speeding things up until you have a solid young core in place to build around. For the Flames I think that's at least another top line forward or two. That's assuming Wolf and Parekh are the real deal. A top line shutdown D would also be ideal.

Moves like Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, just already feel like moves where they want to speed things up but try to sell were getting younger. Accumulating third line guys at this point is a waste of assets to me. I'd rather have a couple extra 2nd round picks instead of those guys. Guys like that are a dime a dozen you can find easily at any point. Give your scouts more opportunities to hit in this building phase.

This offseason will be interesting to see the path they take.

Yeah, I've had these thoughts before. It's been three years out of the playoffs already.

The young guys should keep improving, but we’re still leaning heavily on the vets, and they’re only getting older.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re still spinning our tires a couple of years from now. What happens when it's year five or six without playoffs, a new arena, and no bottoming out?

Wolf, Coronato and Parehk all appear to be studs, but I don't think it's enough yet. We need a star upfront to emerge, and they aren't apparent in our system yet.

I could see the team start getting pretty antsy when the new Arena comes to make playoffs fast, at all costs.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ba'alzamon

Well, that and, for some reason, top five draft picks.

Drafting elite prospects excites fans and gives them hope. After drafting Celebrini, the Sharks saw a sharp increase in season ticket sales, with the highest season ticket renewal rate since 2016 (the year after they went to the Cup final).

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.co...ies-fan-hopes/

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Groot

A random attempted drive-by insult versus adding anything of substance? What a surprise.

You have as much class as you do intelligence.

Feel free to explain why it's "lunacy" or explain your own counter position like others in this topic have. Judging by the response to the post, a lot of people agree with me and my supposed "lunacy" so maybe the problem is you?

I thank you for the unwarranted compliment on my class, you should probably learn to be more specific if you intend insult my good man.

It's lunacy because you've professed a goal less and pointless support for basically no outcome. These aren't our children. You are allowed to have expectations and desires. Most of us who aren't employed by the organization don't owe flames ownership our lives, which I suppose makes you different in some way, but ultimately this level of sycophantic cult like worship is perverse and sickening.

I want to support a club who intends to win the cup at least one time in my life. Unlike you.