Israel declares war on Hamas

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

To add to this German anti semitism was not particularly different from French or British or Canadian anti semitism up until Krystal Nacht even after to a degree, it was only the application of state control that differed in Germany as the 30's progressed which is why the world really was surprised by the holocaust in the middle of the war, German ants semitism wasn't particularly abnormal, Jews were excluded form most 'white' clubs, professions etc in Canada and the UK, Jews were not allowed to buy land in the British Properties in West Vancouver, the covenant was still in place although not enforced until the 1980's as I recall as a historical oddity

Yes, I would even say up until the 30’s French antisemitism was far more worrying than German. The Dreyfus affair and the subsequent fall out was one of the main catalysts that spurred the Zionist movement and early Jewish immigration into Palestine.

Not trying to derail this thread. I just had to push back on the idea that the world really came to the aid of the Jews during the holocaust. I think the widely accepted historical view was the world did very little until the Nazis threatened their own countries. Like you mentioned, antisemitism and Jewish persecution was so common place in Europe most western countries were at best indifferent to what the Nazis were doing to the Jews. The generational trauma and the belief passed down by many Jews who are descendants from survivors is that no one will protect Jews besides Jews. That is really the main tenet behind Zionism. Obviously there are religious elements but the Zionist movement was originally a secular one.

I don’t think you can understand the history in a nuanced way without accepting that both Israelis and Palestinians both view themselves as Righteous Victims , hence why the historian Benny Morris titled his groundbreaking book that title. It is a very accurate depiction that highlights the tragic symmetry, of how both Israelis and Palestinians view themselves as fighting for survival and justice. It is this attitude that makes this conflict all the more complicated and why it is so very hard to solve.

I admittedly discarded parts of the Palestinian perspective for much of my life. For the past bit I have tried to understand the other side. For example the foundation of Israel is a joyous and celebrated moment for many Jews. I made the error of disregarding the destructive consequences that the founding of Israel had on the Palestinians and downplaying the Nakba. It is difficult to balance these two viewpoints in ones conscience, where on one hand Israel represents safety and self determination for Jews but also came at a horrible price for the Palestinians. I think allowing yourself to truly see multiple perspectives at once is a very valuable tool, especially when it comes to Israel/Palestine. It can be very hard to do this even when you are not Israeli or Palestinian, it is even harder when you are connected or directly involved. If there will ever be peace both sides will need governments who are able to reconcile, unfortunately it feels a long ways away. I think there are some people here from both sides that could do more to see the other side even if they do not agree. Once I stopped looking at people who advocated for Palestinians as my enemy I have been able to learn, grow and let go of hate. I really wish I live to see a day where both Israelis, Palestinians and the supporters of both groups can collectively do that.

[Mr.Coffee]

Ya I agree with what you’re saying but go re read the statement on its face and report back. The world sat by and watched Hitler. Does that sound about right to you?

Furthermore it was not super widely known the extent of Nazi Jewish persecution until soldiers were liberating concentration camps and the world became crystal clear aware that Germany took the sort of dormant undertone anti-semitism you’re getting at (and that I agree with) and then have it a few healthy doses of steroids and decided to genocide execute people. Would that have been the reason the world stepped in, maybe not, maybe though in a united fashion, but to discredit what the world did and then also portray the situation that nobody has done anything for Jewish people is pants on head idiotic.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

To add to this German anti semitism was not particularly different from French or British or Canadian anti semitism up until Krystal Nacht even after to a degree, it was only the application of state control that differed in Germany as the 30's progressed which is why the world really was surprised by the holocaust in the middle of the war, German ants semitism wasn't particularly abnormal, Jews were excluded form most 'white' clubs, professions etc in Canada and the UK, Jews were not allowed to buy land in the British Properties in West Vancouver, the covenant was still in place although not enforced until the 1980's as I recall as a historical oddity

I'm sorry to take a moment for levity, but the mental picture here is too much to keep to myself.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm sorry to take a moment for levity, but the mental picture here is too much to keep to myself.

Everything about this situation requires all the levity it can get as nothing else is going to change

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Yes, I would even say up until the 30’s French antisemitism was far more worrying than German. The Dreyfus affair and the subsequent fall out was one of the main catalysts that spurred the Zionist movement and early Jewish immigration into Palestine.

Not trying to derail this thread. I just had to push back on the idea that the world really came to the aid of the Jews during the holocaust. I think the widely accepted historical view was the world did very little until the Nazis threatened their own countries. Like you mentioned, antisemitism and Jewish persecution was so common place in Europe most western countries were at best indifferent to what the Nazis were doing to the Jews. The generational trauma and the belief passed down by many Jews who are descendants from survivors is that no one will protect Jews besides Jews. That is really the main tenet behind Zionism. Obviously there are religious elements but the Zionist movement was originally a secular one.

I don’t think you can understand the history in a nuanced way without accepting that both Israelis and Palestinians both view themselves as Righteous Victims , hence why the historian Benny Morris titled his groundbreaking book that title. It is a very accurate depiction that highlights the tragic symmetry, of how both Israelis and Palestinians view themselves as fighting for survival and justice. It is this attitude that makes this conflict all the more complicated and why it is so very hard to solve.

I admittedly discarded parts of the Palestinian perspective for much of my life. For the past bit I have tried to understand the other side. For example the foundation of Israel is a joyous and celebrated moment for many Jews. I made the error of disregarding the destructive consequences that the founding of Israel had on the Palestinians and downplaying the Nakba. It is difficult to balance these two viewpoints in ones conscience, where on one hand Israel represents safety and self determination for Jews but also came at a horrible price for the Palestinians. I think allowing yourself to truly see multiple perspectives at once is a very valuable tool, especially when it comes to Israel/Palestine. It can be very hard to do this even when you are not Israeli or Palestinian, it is even harder when you are connected or directly involved. If there will ever be peace both sides will need governments who are able to reconcile, unfortunately it feels a long ways away. I think there are some people here from both sides that could do more to see the other side even if they do not agree. Once I stopped looking at people who advocated for Palestinians as my enemy I have been able to learn, grow and let go of hate. I really wish I live to see a day where both Israelis, Palestinians and the supporters of both groups can collectively do that.

I have got #### for it here before but I really mean it when I say there are no good or bad sides or right or wrong in this now after almost 80 years, it's tempting to assume that because the foundation of Israel was patently immoral from a strictly ethical point of view, the UK randomly gave away a country it had no moral right to do, it wasn't like they offered up Wales or Kent or something that Israel is defacto the bad guy. The trouble is that sin is irrelevant to the vast majority of Israeli's who were born there and have never known any other home, it wasn't their fault and they have never known anything else.

It is equally understandable if you are poor in Gaza even before the 7th you would be angry that you 'lost' your land but the truth is almost no one in Gaza has ever lived or known anything else but Gaza

I don't think there is anything Israel could do even if it wanted to that would make most Gazans happy with the crap end of the stick they have got, if you doubled the size of Gaza it would still be a pittance compared to the mythic place Palestine holds in their heart, because of this and the politics of right wing extremism in Israel there is no solution

[afc wimbledon]

Oh and to be clear when I say there are no good or bad guys I don't mean there aren't individual bad guys, both sides have many, but that the sides taken as a whole have no good or bad, you can make an equally good argument morally for both sides

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have got #### for it here before but I really mean it when I say there are no good or bad sides or right or wrong in this now after almost 80 years, it's tempting to assume that because the foundation of Israel was patently immoral from a strictly ethical point of view, the UK randomly gave away a country it had no moral right to do, it wasn't like they offered up Wales or Kent or something that Israel is defacto the bad guy. The trouble is that sin is irrelevant to the vast majority of Israeli's who were born there and have never known any other home, it wasn't their fault and they have never known anything else.

It is equally understandable if you are poor in Gaza even before the 7th you would be angry that you 'lost' your land but the truth is almost no one in Gaza has ever lived or known anything else but Gaza

I don't think there is anything Israel could do even if it wanted to that would make most Gazans happy with the crap end of the stick they have got, if you doubled the size of Gaza it would still be a pittance compared to the mythic place Palestine holds in their heart, because of this and the politics of right wing extremism in Israel there is no solution

Here's the thing, the largest single Israeli Jewish group are the Mizrahi, while not a majority, make up about 45% of the Jewish population in Israel (plus another 20% with mixed Mizrahi heritage). They are defined as having parents or grandparents from Muslim countries in North Africa, the Middle East and Iran. They are there because they were either forced out of their homes or life was made so uncomfortable from persecution, they saw no other choice. Jews of recent European decent make up the second largest group at about 32%. That's a big group for sure, but the notion that most Israelis are Jewish European colonists isn't true.

Hypothetically, if someone suggested a trade where Jews whose parents or grandparents were form Arab countries could go back to their homes in those countries (tough luck for the people living there now), and the same number of Gazans who had parents or grandparents in what is now Israel could go back, would anyone accept that on either side? I am pretty sure countries like Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, etc... would be just against it as Israel. But they have to live somewhere.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Here's the thing, the largest single Israeli Jewish group are the Mizrahi, while not a majority, make up about 45% of the Jewish population in Israel. They are defined as having parents or grandparents from Muslim countries in North Africa, the Middle East and Iran. They are there because they were either forced out of their homes or life was made so uncomfortable from persecution, they saw no other choice. Jews of recent European decent make up the second largest group at about 32%. That's a big group for sure, but the notion that most Israelis are Jewish European colonists isn't true.

Hypothetically, if someone suggested a trade where Jews whose parents or grandparents were form Arab countries could go back to their homes in those countries (tough luck for the people living there now), and the same number of Gazans who had parents or grandparents in what is now Israel could go back, would anyone accept that on either side? I am pretty sure countries like Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, etc... would be just against it as Israel. But they have to live somewhere.

Beyond that if you are a kid who was born in Israel and whose parents were born in Israel, whose only connection to Eastern Europe was a Grand or Great Grandparent even who migrated in the 50's, 70 or 80 years ago, then the fact the family is of European origin is irrelevant, they are as connected to the land as a Palestinian family

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Everything about this situation requires all the levity it can get as nothing else is going to change

Is that why they call it the levant?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Is that why they call it the levant?

The term Levant appears in English in 1497, and originally meant 'the East' or 'Mediterranean lands east of Italy'.[23] It is borrowed from the French levant 'rising', referring to the rising of the sun in the east,[23] or the point where the sun rises.[24] The phrase is ultimately from the Latin word levare, meaning 'lift, raise'. Similar etymologies are found in Greek Ἀνατολή Anatolē (cf. Anatolia 'the direction of sunrise'), in Germanic Morgenland (lit. 'morning land'), in Italian (as in Riviera di Levante, the portion of the Liguria coast east of Genoa), in Hungarian Kelet ('east'), in Spanish and Catalan Levante and Llevant, ('the place of rising'), and in Hebrew מִזְרָח mizraḥ ('east'). Most notably, "Orient" and its Latin source oriens meaning 'east', is literally "rising", deriving from Latin orior 'rise'.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant#Etymology

[SutterBrother]

A few pages ago someone was talking about outcomes. I've been thinking about it since.

The only outcome I see stopping the bloodshed here is the Israeli people removing Benjamin Netanyahu's government from office.

The IDF has laid waste to Gaza and will continue to do so. They will use every means (including starvation) to push Palestinians to the borders in the hopes they flee to other Arab nations. It is ethnic cleansing.

Hamas will never surrender (and are generally happy to use human shields and be sent to paradise because they are a death cult). They will also keep every hostage as long as they can for leverage. They have no humanity.

The US under Trump is lead by a moron, fully supportive of Netanyahu, hates Muslims, and loves arms sales. This won't change over the next 4 years. Their ideal outcome is likely Gaza (and eventually the west bank) being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians.

The global community doesn't care about the Palestinians. In particular, the local middle eastern nations don't want the Palestinians to become "their problem", and will not permit them to resettle. No nation wants to be involved in the conflict, or has a reason to invest in stopping it. The resolutions in the UN and public statements may play with the "Free Palestine" movements in their countries, but are meaningless on the ground.

College campus protests are college kids doing college things that will have zero impact.

You might see more one off terrorist murders like the other day as social media radicalizes a subset of online idiot losers into "action". This will deepen the security apparatus in Western Democracies, likely push society further to the right, and probably create a significant backlash to Muslim communities.

So - to my mind the only people left who could possibly stop this would be the Israeli community who recognizes how disproportionate the Netanyahu response has become. I hope they are a majority, and can take power in an election.

I hope they get a chance soon - the death toll is going to rise beyond what anyone has seen so far very quickly as disease and starvation are deepened in the death mix of Gaza.

I am open to being wrong.
I would appreciate other alternatives if you have them.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

A few pages ago someone was talking about outcomes. I've been thinking about it since.

The only outcome I see stopping the bloodshed here is the Israeli people removing Benjamin Netanyahu's government from office.

The IDF has laid waste to Gaza and will continue to do so. They will use every means (including starvation) to push Palestinians to the borders in the hopes they flee to other Arab nations. It is ethnic cleansing.

Hamas will never surrender (and are generally happy to use human shields and be sent to paradise because they are a death cult). They will also keep every hostage as long as they can for leverage. They have no humanity.

The US under Trump is lead by a moron, fully supportive of Netanyahu, hates Muslims, and loves arms sales. This won't change over the next 4 years. Their ideal outcome is likely Gaza (and eventually the west bank) being ethnically cleansed of Palestinians.

The global community doesn't care about the Palestinians. In particular, the local middle eastern nations don't want the Palestinians to become "their problem", and will not permit them to resettle. No nation wants to be involved in the conflict, or has a reason to invest in stopping it. The resolutions in the UN and public statements may play with the "Free Palestine" movements in their countries, but are meaningless on the ground.

College campus protests are college kids doing college things that will have zero impact.

You might see more one off terrorist murders like the other day as social media radicalizes a subset of online idiot losers into "action". This will deepen the security apparatus in Western Democracies, likely push society further to the right, and probably create a significant backlash to Muslim communities.

So - to my mind the only people left who could possibly stop this would be the Israeli community who recognizes how disproportionate the Netanyahu response has become. I hope they are a majority, and can take power in an election.

I hope they get a chance soon - the death toll is going to rise beyond what anyone has seen so far very quickly as disease and starvation are deepened in the death mix of Gaza.

I am open to being wrong.
I would appreciate other alternatives if you have them.

I'd argue that the US has always been fully supportive of Netanyahu, hates Muslims, and loves arms sales. I understand that under other administrations there's been public calls for Israel to stop whatever brutal killing campaign they happen to be executing at that time, but words mean little when behind the scenes, America continues to sell arms to Israel and be the only UN member to support Israel at the UN every time without exception.

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I'd argue that the US has always been fully supportive of Netanyahu, hates Muslims, and loves arms sales. I understand that under other administrations there's been public calls for Israel to stop whatever brutal killing campaign they happen to be executing at that time, but words mean little when behind the scenes, America continues to sell arms to Israel and be the only UN member to support Israel at the UN every time without exception.

I guess I generally agree - but with the dotard there is zero doubt about where this is going. Between the evangelicals wanting sky daddy to return, and the literal Muslim ban in his last term, we have absolute certainty he won't help the Palestinians in any way.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Ya I agree with what you’re saying but go re read the statement on its face and report back. The world sat by and watched Hitler. Does that sound about right to you?

I would imagine that from the Jewish perspective that statement does make sense. How many countries turned away boatloads of Jewish refugees during that time period? We're one of of them.

The large scale death camps were largely a surprise when discovered at the end of the war by Allied forces.

As is typical human nature, the Allied nations feared for their own way of life, and only then did they insert themselves into the German situation. They were perfectly happy to placate Hitler despite his tyrannical ways as long as it meant their lives weren't impacted.

[CroFlames]

Are people forgetting the might of Germany at the outset? Nobody stood by and watched, they were blitzkrieg'd into submission with modern armor and modern tactics. The British army was almost annihilated early trying to help the French resist.

What will people say 80 years from now about the fate of Gazans? The world watch Israel's advanced military wipe out a poor Palestinian enclave.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What will people say 80 years from now about the fate of Gazans? The world watch Israel's advanced military wipe out a poor Palestinian enclave.

Agreed. I think both are very similar - everyone sees something horrible happening and worries about self preservation above all else when making a decision to intervene or not.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Are people forgetting the might of Germany at the outset? Nobody stood by and watched, they were blitzkrieg'd into submission with modern armor and modern tactics. The British army was almost annihilated early trying to help the French resist.

What will people say 80 years from now about the fate of Gazans? The world watch Israel's advanced military wipe out a poor Palestinian enclave.

The world is basically fine with us, all of the America , North South and Central where we Europeans wiped out the native population with our advanced weaponry and stole their land.

The reality is Israel can wipe out Gaza, effectively expel the population and then if it can make peace with the rest of the middle east in a century or so no one will remember Gaza

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The world is basically fine with us, all of the America , North South and Central where we Europeans wiped out the native population with our advanced weaponry and stole their land.

The reality is Israel can wipe out Gaza, effectively expel the population and then if it can make peace with the rest of the middle east in a century or so no one will remember Gaza

And if Israel begins an offensive into Lebanon or Syria?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

And if Israel begins an offensive into Lebanon or Syria?

Dont see that in the cards frankly, they will likely bomb the crap out of Iran though, but no one cares about that really

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Are people forgetting the might of Germany at the outset? Nobody stood by and watched, they were blitzkrieg'd into submission with modern armor and modern tactics. The British army was almost annihilated early trying to help the French resist.

What will people say 80 years from now about the fate of Gazans? The world watch Israel's advanced military wipe out a poor Palestinian enclave.

The way the history of WWII and Nazism is taught in general leaves out a lot of details and really over simplifies things. Nazism and similar ideologies were a movement happening almost everywhere at the time (including in Palestine whose leaders allied with Hitler). Germany was the place where it took hold enough to form a government first, but it was happening at varying rates elsewhere. That is why some governments were easy to topple and install puppet regimes. There were already prefab governments in waiting that could be unpacked that had substantial support, kind of like their own Project 2025 plans. It's not that unlike the situation today with far-right authoritarianism increasing all over the place. The French really do get a bad rap for a lot of it though. While the government fell quickly, the large portions of the military fought throughout the whole war, sometimes as free French, and often under the command of other allies like Britain. If people want to call their politicians cowardly, fine, but many of the soldiers were extremely brave.