Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

So, just so we’re clear: Israel, which enjoys more economic, military, and diplomatic support from Western and European nations than any other country in the Middle East by far, is not being treated fairly compared to Hamas, which enjoys none of the above, because their military actions and killing of civilians, which is disproportionately (to an insane degree) large compared to Hamas, are being criticized disproportionately compared to Hamas, who should be receiving equal criticism. And this is being argued by people who have responded to the latest condemnable incidents by Israel by ignoring those incidents and instead almost immediately resorting to complaining about the way Israel is treated…

This is absurd to watch. And that’s without mentioning the fact that it is incredibly difficult to offer up condemnation of all parties when one group is committing more condemnable acts with more regularity than any other party. What are people supposed to do? Every week they mention the hundreds of innocent people Israel killed that week they should also choose a number of people Hamas killed at any point in history?

“Israel killed over one hundred innocent civilians this week as they continue to pursue the eradication of the Palestinian people of Gaza. But a senior Hamas official also said the dead of Gaza were material losses that would be easily replaced. These things are equally bad.”

That’s what is going to make people happy?

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So, just so we’re clear: Israel, which enjoys more economic, military, and diplomatic support from Western and European nations than any other country in the Middle East by far, is not being treated fairly compared to Hamas, which enjoys none of the above, because their military actions and killing of civilians, which is disproportionately (to an insane degree) large compared to Hamas, are being criticized disproportionately compared to Hamas, who should be receiving equal criticism. And this is being argued by people who have responded to the latest condemnable incidents by Israel by ignoring those incidents and instead almost immediately resorting to complaining about the way Israel is treated…

This is absurd to watch. And that’s without mentioning the fact that it is incredibly difficult to offer up condemnation of all parties when one group is committing more condemnable acts with more regularity than any other party. What are people supposed to do? Every week they mention the hundreds of innocent people Israel killed that week they should also choose a number of people Hamas killed at any point in history?

“Israel killed over one hundred innocent civilians this week as they continue to pursue the eradication of the Palestinian people of Gaza. But a senior Hamas official also said the dead of Gaza were material losses that would be easily replaced. These things are equally bad.”

That’s what is going to make people happy?

You’re losing the plot man. It’s way too late for any of this to happen now.

My argument was that IF this was done starting on Oct 8, there is a real chance all the hostages would have been released and most of this pain on both sides would have been avoided.

Nobody knows if I’m right or wrong, but it’s a hopeful thought and maybe the next time something like this happens in the world we can learn from our mistakes.

[TherapyforGlencross]

In what world has the world not given a #### about Israel? The US and UK provided assistance to Israel’s strikes against Iran, the US routinely keeps giving Israel weapons, Trudeau called himself a Zionist weeks before he was done as PM. I guess we should apologize as the West that we haven’t provided more weapons to Israel in their fight against Gaza. Just like we should apologize to the US for not assisting in the War in Iraq. Maybe people want us to look away when Israel decides to kill an entire fleet of ambulances, maybe that’s what people mean.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Loved the stance Carney took. So glad he is our PM. Further distancing ourselves from the US and this genocide

[ThePrince]

“Why does the world not care about us and support everything we do, I can’t believe people don’t talk about Hamas as much as us”

- Country that’s killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians over the last 18 months, assassinated journalists, aid workers, health care workers, and shoots at diplomats.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/isr...hots-1.7540343

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

You’re losing the plot man. It’s way too late for any of this to happen now.

My argument was that IF this was done starting on Oct 8, there is a real chance all the hostages would have been released and most of this pain on both sides would have been avoided.

Nobody knows if I’m right or wrong, but it’s a hopeful thought and maybe the next time something like this happens in the world we can learn from our mistakes.

Maybe instead of being wistful over the hope and promise of a new day and new opportunity to ignore a new genocide you might rather focus on the genocide that’s happening today.

Like your argument is that if the world had done… what on October 8? Exactly what it did? Or you’re suggesting the world shouldn’t have supported Israel in every way?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That was the goal.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...nt-2023-10-11/

So you either accept that they are not very good at it, or they realized by keeping Hamas as the enemy it allows them to justify the genocide of the Palestinian people. So, incompetent or malicious. I know what the evidence points to.

Or, perhaps, it's simply not easy to eradicate a terrorist group that embeds itself in the civilian population.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by SebC

Or, perhaps, it's simply not easy to eradicate a terrorist group that embeds itself in the civilian population.

This is such BS.

First of all, Israel has been obviously doing an indiscriminate genocide since day 1 one of this operation, so really even to claim that eradicating Hamas was ever the main goal is disingenuous.


Second, even if we would accept the obviously BS claim that this was at any point only about Hamas, basically every expert has been telling since the beginning of the operation that what Israel has been doing is unlikely to work, and will most likely only makes the security situation much worse for both the international Jewish diaspora and Israeli population overall. Which is exactly what has happened. You would think that making the security situation worse instead of better would matter, but it doesn't. Obviously, because that was always an excuse.

Because none of this has been about making Israel safe.

Israel's global reputation has been absolutely destroyed to a point of no return, and we aren't even at the point when this genocide will be taught in schools. It will however. Israel is now primarily known as the genocide nation. Literal nazis as well as various far-right extremist groups ow waive Israeli flags side by side with their own flag.

Yet people will still defend Israel, because we live in the stupid timeline.

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Itse

First of all, Israel has been obviously doing an indiscriminate genocide since day 1 one of this operation, so really even to claim that eradicating Hamas was ever the main goal is disingenuous.

I can actually understand that viewpoint if you're talking day 365 of the war, but day 1? You got some mad conspiracy theory going on there... You're clearly ignoring 2 major facts which are:

1. Hamas planned a coordinated attack to indiscriminately hurt as many Israelis as possible.
2. 251 hostages were taken back to Gaza.

Originally Posted by Itse

Literal nazis as well as various far-right extremist groups ow waive Israeli flags side by side with their own flag.

Source?

[Leondros]

Super tragic and senseless but not at all surprising this happened unfortunately.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/livest...tack-9.6768751

Single suspect chanted "Free Palestine" while in custody

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

I can actually understand that viewpoint if you're talking day 365 of the war, but day 1? You got some mad conspiracy theory going on there... You're clearly ignoring 2 major facts which are:

1. Hamas planned a coordinated attack to indiscriminately hurt as many Israelis as possible.
2. 251 hostages were taken back to Gaza.


Source?

How about these?





That sounds a little genocidal, no?





Ya...





But I thought the Nakba of 1948 was made up? So is this made up too? Or are we just supposed to continue to believe their streams of deceptive bull####?








https://truthaboutpalestine.com/#the-racism


You'll notice these expressions of hatred are not targeted at just Hamas. Note the dates of the quotes(not 365 days later...). Instead of going with "mad conspiracy theory" deflections, maybe see if he's right first?

[Fuzz]

Speaking of shootings...

Prime Minister Mark Carney says it's "totally unacceptable" that members of the Israeli army fired shots near a diplomatic delegation, which included Canadians, in the West Bank on Wednesday.

The federal government confirmed Wednesday that four members of a Canadian delegation were part of a tour in the city of Jenin when members of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) fired in their vicinity. Two were Canadians and two were local staff, Foreign Affairs Minister Anita Anand's office said.

In a statement the IDF said the tour group, which also included representatives from other countries, "deviated" from the approved route and soldiers fired warning shots to get the delegation to move.

The IDF said it "regrets the inconvenience."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/isr...hots-1.7540343


I like this technique. We should implement it in Banff any time tourists get too close to animals. "Just a warning shot, bud! Keep your distance!"

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That sounds a little genocidal, no?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/promis...his-black-day/

Really it's so easy to just find stuff on the internet that proves your point one way or another. Also it's obvious you took all these images from some article/publication that has a very clear objective.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

But I thought the Nakba of 1948 was made up? So is this made up too? Or are we just supposed to continue to believe their streams of deceptive bull####?

You are genuinely so full of **** lol... I never said that. The Nakba is misunderstood and consistently used void of the surrounding context. I could go into it, but talking to you is more painful than banging my head against a wall. I try to be productive, but you're such a bitter person. All you do is attack people with different viewpoints than you.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

https://www.timesofisrael.com/promis...his-black-day/

Really it's so easy to just find stuff on the internet that proves your point one way or another. Also it's obvious you took all these images from some article/publication that has a very clear objective.


You are genuinely so full of **** lol... I never said that. The Nakba is misunderstood and consistently used void of the surrounding context. I could go into it, but talking to you is more painful than banging my head against a wall. I try to be productive, but you're such a bitter person. All you do is attack people with different viewpoints than you.

Dude, these are quotes from the people in power doing the things. Yes, the site is probably biased, but unless you are going to show those quotes are misleading as presented, and not the actual thoughts and words of the people saying them, your dismissal does nothing more than prove you do not care about reality. I used them because they are easy to find all in one place.


You are welcome to hunt for more that disprove your statement that they didn't feel and act this way from day one. You made a claim without evidence, I countered with evidence. If you think that makes me full of ####, I'd suggest that is a stronger reflection on you than me.


As to you taking the Nakba comment as a comment on your own views, well, again, that's you assuming something. People have argued in this thread it was basically made up. My snide remark was against that, but hey, if you instantly felt like you needed to strike at the remark, does that not indicate you share those feelings? I'm sure you have a deep one sided story you've convinced yourself to downplay the horrific acts that took place at the time.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

But also you're missing the part where Hitler merked 6 million Jews while the whole world sat by and watched.

This is an extremely disgusting thing to post, let alone think, because of how blatantly wrong it is. If you think this, you’re coming across as an extremist and will never discuss the topic in good faith so no point having you around.

I frankly think this is a ban worthy quote myself and personally find it insulting. Not just because of how insanely wrong it is, but also the stupidity of it. Guess my grandfather was just on a cute European vacation back then, as he sat in a POW camp for 3 years. Nobody learns anything from a person writing such insane, naked untruth ramblings, The kind of nonsense only a zealot extremist might write.

You should maybe hit the history books if you actually believe this bull####. I’m guessing you won’t because you like to bathe in your ignorance and can’t look in the mirror which leads me to pre-empt your next ####ty response with a nice go #### yourself. Yeah, nobody’s done anything for Jewish people. Good call.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

You are genuinely so full of **** lol... I never said that. The Nakba is misunderstood and consistently used void of the surrounding context. I could go into it, but talking to you is more painful than banging my head against a wall. I try to be productive, but you're such a bitter person. All you do is attack people with different viewpoints than you.

Interesting attempt to deflect and reframe. Fuzz didn’t attack you at all in that post, he disputed your claims. You, however, as someone “trying to be productive,” have attacked others and called them names repeatedly, including twice in this post. If you’re aiming for productive, that ain’t it, and if you’re going to play the victim around “bitter” people “attacking” others, you should do much less of it yourself.

It’s an understandable result of having the agenda you want to push be too far removed from reality to actually defend it on logic and fact based grounds. However, whether it’s denial on your part or just the assumption that everyone else is stupid enough to subscribe to the same agenda without question or dispute doesn’t really matter, you need to move past it and realize people are wise to the game. If you want to go around playing pretend go ahead, but it’s not getting you anywhere.

[CalgaryKid12]

I owe everyone on here an apology. You may not accept it and that's fair enough, but I will see myself out with this post.

I really wanted to come on here and share my viewpoints and try to be constructive, but I became too invested, upset, and angry when people pushed back. It's obviously a sensitive topic for me and I said some things in haste that were unfair, untrue, and hurtful. In rereading a lot of these messages, that's become apparent to me. I am doing the opposite of what my intentions were and as such I will stop commenting.

I do genuinely hope that we achieve a lasting peace in the region for both sides.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This is an extremely disgusting thing to post, let alone think, because of how blatantly wrong it is. If you think this, you’re coming across as an extremist and will never discuss the topic in good faith so no point having you around.

I frankly think this is a ban worthy quote myself and personally find it insulting. Not just because of how insanely wrong it is, but also the stupidity of it. Guess my grandfather was just on a cute European vacation back then, as he sat in a POW camp for 3 years. Nobody learns anything from a person writing such insane, naked untruth ramblings, The kind of nonsense only a zealot extremist might write.

You should maybe hit the history books if you actually believe this bull####. I’m guessing you won’t because you like to bathe in your ignorance and can’t look in the mirror which leads me to pre-empt your next ####ty response with a nice go #### yourself. Yeah, nobody’s done anything for Jewish people. Good call.

I’m not trying to get pulled back into this thead but just wanted to point out some historical inaccuracies here. The US and Canada did not join World War 2 to stop the Holocaust or help the Jews. The US joined as a response to Pearl Harbor, protection of national interests throug countering the threat made by the Axis Powers. Canada joined out of loyalty to the British and opposition to Nazi aggression. Both the US and Canada rejected Jewish immigration in the leadup to the Holocaust, Canada in particular let in some of the fewest of the allied countries. There were several instances of the US and Canada rejecting boats of Jewish immigrants and sending them back to Europe. One Canadian official even said publicly in reference to Jewish immigrants that “None was too many”. World War 2 and the worlds lack of help for the Jews is a key point many Jews raise when arguing the case for Israels existence. The premise that world war 2 was fought to “save the Jews” is a historical fallacy, the allies were not doing the Jews a favour like someone else implied. One out of every 3 European Jews were killed, the Allies restricted Jewish immigration, and they all entered the war for mainly their own self interests. It is hard for me to see what favour was handed to the Jews who suffered in the Holocaust.

That being said your grandfather is still a hero in my eyes but both Canada and the US did not join the war to save the Jews. In my opinion neither cared very much about the plight of the Jews in Europe at the time. I would argue it was relatively low on the reasons to join the war from either country. I’d argue the allied powers were willing to let Hitler do whatever he wanted with the Jews in Nazi territory and it was only the breaking of the Munich Agreement and the above reasons I mentioned that got the Allied powers to join the war. Jewish suffering was not a reason, Jews had suffered in Europe for a millennium and the world did not care. So I encourage you to reconsider your last point that its a ridiculous statement. I think that’s a pretty accurate statement in my opinion

Outside of all the violence and death, for me personally the increase in global antisemitism makes me very uneasy as a openly Jewish person in Canada and the US (should note I am living in the US with my fiancé but plan to move back after married). I know many members of the Canadian Jewish community feel the same and the longer this war goes on us in the diaspora will get hit with the backlash. Also the longer the war goes on Bibi and the far right continues to expand their power in Israel without an election. Hopefully the war can end and no Gazan is forced to relocate and the suffering ends. Hopefully some sort of path for a two state solution can be forged as well but it look bleak which upsets me very much. The idea of relocating 1 million Gazans to Libya is gross, unethical and makes me sad as someone who wants a 2 state solution. More importantly as a descendant of people who were ethnically cleansed I cannot support any relocation of Palestinians out of Gaza, the Gazans want to stay and the region including Israel should help rebuild the strip. No ceasefire should be predicated on 1 million people removed. Reading that a few weeks ago made my stomach turn. I truly hope this does not happen and peace can be achieved at least in the short term. The entire situation makes me incredibly sad.

I was going through this thread as i havent been reading it but saw Q’s post a few pages back and wanted to give my deepest condolences to him and his family. I am very sorry man.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

. The Nakba is misunderstood and consistently used void of the surrounding context. I could go into it, but talking to you is more painful than banging my head against a wall. I try to be productive, but you're such a bitter person. All you do is attack people with different viewpoints than you.

Wow, today I learned the Nakba was just a misunderstanding and not a violent mass ethnic cleansing.

Neat.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I’m not trying to get pulled back into this thead but just wanted to point out some historical inaccuracies here. The US and Canada did not join World War 2 to stop the Holocaust or help the Jews. The US joined as a response to Pearl Harbor, protection of national interests throug countering the threat made by the Axis Powers. Canada joined out of loyalty to the British and opposition to Nazi aggression. Both the US and Canada rejected Jewish immigration in the leadup to the Holocaust, Canada in particular let in some of the fewest of the allied countries. There were several instances of the US and Canada rejecting boats of Jewish immigrants and sending them back to Europe. One Canadian official even said publicly in reference to Jewish immigrants that “None was too many”. World War 2 and the worlds lack of help for the Jews is a key point many Jews raise when arguing the case for Israels existence. The premise that world war 2 was fought to “save the Jews” is a historical fallacy, the allies were not doing the Jews a favour like someone else implied. One out of every 3 European Jews were killed, the Allies restricted Jewish immigration, and they all entered the war for mainly their own self interests. It is hard for me to see what favour was handed to the Jews who suffered in the Holocaust.

That being said your grandfather is still a hero in my eyes but both Canada and the US did not join the war to save the Jews. In my opinion neither cared very much about the plight of the Jews in Europe at the time. I would argue it was relatively low on the reasons to join the war from either country. I’d argue the allied powers were willing to let Hitler do whatever he wanted with the Jews in Nazi territory and it was only the breaking of the Munich Agreement and the above reasons I mentioned that got the Allied powers to join the war. Jewish suffering was not a reason, Jews had suffered in Europe for a millennium and the world did not care. So I encourage you to reconsider your last point that its a ridiculous statement. I think that’s a pretty accurate statement in my opinion

Outside of all the violence and death, for me personally the increase in global antisemitism makes me very uneasy as a openly Jewish person in Canada and the US (should note I am living in the US with my fiancé but plan to move back after married). I know many members of the Canadian Jewish community feel the same and the longer this war goes on us in the diaspora will get hit with the backlash. Also the longer the war goes on Bibi and the far right continues to expand their power in Israel without an election. Hopefully the war can end and no Gazan is forced to relocate and the suffering ends. Hopefully some sort of path for a two state solution can be forged as well but it look bleak which upsets me very much. The idea of relocating 1 million Gazans to Libya is gross, unethical and makes me sad as someone who wants a 2 state solution. More importantly as a descendant of people who were ethnically cleansed I cannot support any relocation of Palestinians out of Gaza, the Gazans want to stay and the region including Israel should help rebuild the strip. No ceasefire should be predicated on 1 million people removed. Reading that a few weeks ago made my stomach turn. I truly hope this does not happen and peace can be achieved at least in the short term. The entire situation makes me incredibly sad.

I was going through this thread as i havent been reading it but saw Q’s post a few pages back and wanted to give my deepest condolences to him and his family. I am very sorry man.

To add to this German anti semitism was not particularly different from French or British or Canadian anti semitism up until Krystal Nacht even after to a degree, it was only the application of state control that differed in Germany as the 30's progressed which is why the world really was surprised by the holocaust in the middle of the war, German ants semitism wasn't particularly abnormal, Jews were excluded form most 'white' clubs, professions etc in Canada and the UK, Jews were not allowed to buy land in the British Properties in West Vancouver, the covenant was still in place although not enforced until the 1980's as I recall as a historical oddity