[Rumour] Dailyfaceoff: Flames might go big game hunting this summer

[Toonage]

Look how close the Flames were this year, now insert Marner's point totals or at least something close to it.

They absolutely do IMO. His inclusion gets you at least that one additional point they needed.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Marner might be able to get Huberdeau back into point per game territory. But do those two as the Flames' #1 and #2 get them into the playoffs?

It might get you into the playoffs but you sure aren’t going anywhere , and they aren’t going to get better as they age

This team still needs a core

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

It might get you into the playoffs but you sure aren’t going anywhere , and they aren’t going to get better as they age

This team still needs a core

I mean they are starting to form their core.

I'm not sure how many players you define as a core, but lets say 5.
So under long term contract we have:
Kadri, Huberdeau, Coronato and Weegar.

Then you can probably add Wolf, Bahl and Parehk to that shortly.


That's our core. Is it the best core? No. Pretty clear lack of top end talent up front. but it's what we got for the next 5+ years.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Marner might be able to get Huberdeau back into point per game territory. But do those two as the Flames' #1 and #2 get them into the playoffs?

They just had 96 points

[MrMike]

Can we please not become the retirement community for over paid free agents?

Look at what Nashville just did.

I want nothing of that.

So ####ing stupid, just emulate exactly Carolina.

Small but gradual increases in the right direction, every single year be a top 6 to win a cup odds, while still keeping or adding to their asset management.

Also a small market where no one wants to sign or be there.

Copy and Paste, shut up and just do it.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by traptor

I mean they are starting to form their core.

I'm not sure how many players you define as a core, but lets say 5.
So under long term contract we have:
Kadri, Huberdeau, Coronato and Weegar.

Then you can probably add Wolf, Bahl and Parehk to that shortly.


That's our core. Is it the best core? No. Pretty clear lack of top end talent up front. but it's what we got for the next 5+ years.

I look at core as the next 5-7 years and into a cup contention window. It usually takes a rebuilding team that long to really be a cup contender if done right

Kadri , Huberdeau , Weegar will not be the core when we are ready to compete

Right now I see Wolf , Cornato (and even that’s a 5/6 core player on a contending team if he continues to develop ) and we hope Parekh

Missing 2 centers , another D , and another winger for the new core IMO.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Can we please not become the retirement community for over paid free agents?

Look at what Nashville just did.

I want nothing of that.

So ####ing stupid, just emulate exactly Carolina.

Small but gradual increases in the right direction, every single year be a top 6 to win a cup odds, while still keeping or adding to their asset management.

Also a small market where no one wants to sign or be there.

Copy and Paste, shut up and just do it.

Stamkos is 35, very different

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Can we please not become the retirement community for over paid free agents?

Look at what Nashville just did.

I want nothing of that.

So ####ing stupid, just emulate exactly Carolina.

Small but gradual increases in the right direction, every single year be a top 6 to win a cup odds, while still keeping or adding to their asset management.

Also a small market where no one wants to sign or be there.

Copy and Paste, shut up and just do it.

They also picked 5-7-5-13-12-2-28-13 overall in consecutive years to start their new core and found a 2nd round gem in Aho

It’s a good team to emulate strategy wise but some of their top players came high in the draft as well

[MrMike]

Post our draft pick positions during the same time

Honestly, those are nothing exciting or standing out at all.

Those 5 7 5s were Elias Lindholm, Hayden Fleury and Noah Hanifin

Bean, Necas, then Svechnikov

So their amateur scouts are awful, but their pro scouts and business model is correct.


Actually it shows more in that trend with increased continued slow growth not regression even with the incredibly awful first round picks early on.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Post our draft pick positions during the same time

Honestly, those are nothing exciting or standing out at all.

Those 5 7 5s were Elias Lindholm, Hayden Fleury and Noah Hanifin

7 out of 8 years top 13, with 4 top 7 and a 2nd overall is “nothing exciting”

How do people expect us to copy and paste Carolina’s strategy without the main part of their strategy - pick good players early in the draft to create your core or players you eventually trade for assets that become part of the core ?

For example Coronato was 13th overall . If you find 3-4 Coronato type players and find a 2nd round Aho you have a good core . (Ignoring the 2nd overall pick that we have never even had )

Edit - I see you edited post - you don’t think Necas , Hanifin , Lindholm and Svichnikov were importsnt assets to get Carolina where they are today ?

And we also need to find an Aho in the 2nd round . Simple !

It actually shows even high picks can easily miss - and we have people penciling in every Flames prospect as a future player despite most being 2nd round or later , and this draft mid to end 1st round

We will also miss on lots of players. Higher picks makes it less likely to miss

[traptor]

The canes have drafted exceptionally well with their later picks, but yeah I guess they're proof you can.


They also haven't been able to get over the hump though. I think they realize they're missing that "superstar" the other perennial contenders typically have.

What they do have that we don't have is an Aho and Slavin.

Not sure why Aho doesn't get more Selke nods, but he's a top 10 C in the league. and Slavin is a top 5 Dman imo.

They're actually pretty ruthless too though, which we haven't been.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

7 out of 8 years top 13, with 4 top 7 and a 2nd overall is “nothing exciting”

How do people expect us to copy and paste Carolina’s strategy without the main part of their strategy - pick good players early in the draft to create your core or players you eventually trade for assets that become part of the core ?

For example Coronato was 13th overall . If you find 3-4 Coronato type players and find a 2nd round Aho you have a good core . (Ignoring the 2nd overall pick that we have never even had )

In that same time period we had Monahan, Bennett, Andersson and Tkachuk

Why are they where they are and we where we are?

Gaudreau in the 4th, Andersson in the 2nd and a first that would have been either Barzal Chabot or Connor.

I am not saying tank, which they did not, I am saying more on Carolina's back end of their players careers.

Continue to develope and pump in from the pipeline, have more draft picks than you started with, trade out high profile assets rather than use them for a run. AND be okay with losing one of those assets and not over paying the wrong ones because of how heavy your asset portfolio is already.

Great risk assesment, just look what they tried and did with Rantanen

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by MrMike

In that same time period we had Monahan, Bennett, Andersson and Tkachuk

Why are they where they are and we where we are?

Gaudreau in the 4th, Andersson in the 2nd and a first that would have been either Barzal Chabot or Connor.

Because those core players aren’t on our team and we didn’t suck for long enough to get more guys? 2 of them were Key players on a cup winning team last year . That’s a … weird argument …. Since the guys we drafted with those picks became a core

You left out Jarvis at 13 as well for Carolina

They sucked for 7/8 years . We sucked for 3

And that Flames core was in the right track if they stayed together and kept adding IMO.

Why do you think Carolina is successful ?

Since it’s apparently not Because all the guys they got for their core effectively were drafted , and most were drafted high

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

It might get you into the playoffs but you sure aren’t going anywhere , and they aren’t going to get better as they age

This team still needs a core

I take that all day as a stepping stone to something bigger.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by MrMike

In that same time period we had Monahan, Bennett, Andersson and Tkachuk

Why are they where they are and we where we are?

Gaudreau in the 4th, Andersson in the 2nd and a first that would have been either Barzal Chabot or Connor.

I am not saying tank, which they did not, I am saying more on Carolina's back end of their players careers.

Continue to develope and pump in from the pipeline, have more draft picks than you started with, trade out high profile assets rather than use them for a run. AND be okay with losing one of those assets and not over paying the wrong ones because of how heavy your asset portfolio is already.

Great risk assesment, just look what they tried and did with Rantanen

Team culture. They've been building a strong team culture over the last 10 years or so and found a coach that reinforces it and gets the most out of their players.

It's one of the things that Calgary has begun to do well and why they shouldn't just sell off all of their vets regardless of whether they bottom out next year.

And they haven't rushed out and overpayed anyone, including their RFAs. In hindsight, their only boneheaded free agency move that I can remember was the KK offer sheet, but it was a decent risk to take at the time.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Can we please not become the retirement community for over paid free agents?

Look at what Nashville just did.

I want nothing of that.

So ####ing stupid, just emulate exactly Carolina.

Small but gradual increases in the right direction, every single year be a top 6 to win a cup odds, while still keeping or adding to their asset management.

Also a small market where no one wants to sign or be there.

Copy and Paste, shut up and just do it.

Carolina signed Kotkaniemi, half their defence and their goalie on the free agent market. Most teams do that, when there is talent that can be made available for free they sign them.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Because those core players aren’t on our team and we didn’t suck for long enough to get more guys? 2 of them were Key players on a cup winning team last year . That’s a … weird argument …. Since the guys we drafted with those picks became a core

You left out Jarvis at 13 as well for Carolina

They sucked for 7/8 years . We sucked for 3

And that Flames core was in the right track if they stayed together and kept adding IMO.

Why do you think Carolina is successful ?

Since it’s apparently not Because all the guys they got for their core effectively were drafted , and most were drafted high

Aho was drafted 35th overall, Jarvis 13th overall, slavin 120th, Blake 109th. Most of the rest through free agency or trades. Almost none were drafted high. I think the Flames can follow that model, no need for super high picks.

[OminousFlames]

No thanks to big game hunting. Look at what Nashville did last off-season. Stick to the plan of building up with young players. We already have enough vets on the team.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Aho was drafted 35th overall, Jarvis 13th overall, slavin 120th, Blake 109th. Most of the rest through free agency or trades. Almost none were drafted high. I think the Flames can follow that model, no need for super high picks.

That’s not a model . Find an Aho in round 2 and a Slavin in round 4isnt a replicable model. It’s what you hope happens , but it can’t be the plan. Every team wants to do that

Again - there’s some misconception Carolina built a team without being bad for a long time

They didn’t

They finished in the bottom 13 seven times in 8 years starting in 2013.
They drafted a lot of top of the draft talent that contributed to their success (they ended up trading most - but their 2nd and 3rd playoff leading scorers were picked with those picks)

Even Aho was 35th overall because they had a bad record and one of the top picks in the 2nd round

They are well managed but they were bad for a long time and collected a lot of top assets with those picks

Flames have a 9th overall and a 13th overall as the only self drafted high picks in thier potential core . Wolf might be our Slavin / gem found late - but we are missing so much young talent and need years of properly rebuilding if you want to emulate the Carolina model

[SilverKast]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Would you trade the two later 1sts for a top 10 1st?

I would 100%, but put yourself in the reverse situation - no way I'd trade a top 10 pick with a higher chance of an elite player for a couple later picks in the first round where I'm likely to get more of what I already have. Unless I already have the elite talent and need to fill around it, which is the opposite of what we have. But the teams with elite talent already usually aren't selecting top 10 so there aren't many potential trading partners.