Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by D as in David

The issue is that religious organizations can obtain charitable status without having to prove that they are doing or will do charitable work.

Happily, Scientology is one of the few that has actually failed at this; they are not an officially recognized religion and do not receive tax exempt status as a charity.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Almost half Canada’s indigenous population identifies as Christian, and almost a third (485,000) as Catholic. Around 40,000 people, mostly indigenous, attend the Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage in Northern Alberta every year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...erta-1.6502477

So they’d likely agree with that statement at about the same rate as the rest of Canadians.

The History of Indigenous peoples and Christianity is very interesting. the most important points is that there are hundreds and were likely thousands of different nations and cultures, so responses to Christianity varied greatly and certainly changed over the 400 years of interaction between cultures.

Some historians argue that some Indigenous cultures have very flexible religious beliefs, meaning that they can adopt and incorporate different religious elements with out committing a cultural faux pas or sin. This is in contrast to Christianity which has very rigid rules and procedures. So in other words, and Indigenous person can say to lords prayer and go to church, but not exactly abandon their own cultural or religious practices. ( this point really pissed off and confused missionaries who had a binary view of religion and culture)

[CliffFletcher]

Actively religious people tend to be happier, live healthier lifestyles, and are more socially and civically engaged. These correlations persist when controlling for other demographic factors.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...und-the-world/

They also have better mental health and lower rates of depression:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/article...0Liu%2C%202014

There’s solid empirical data behind the case for the state supporting religious institutions and engagement.

That’s today. But there’s no reason to believe that wasn’t the case in the past as well. Then there’s the charitable role religion played back before the welfare state grew post WW2. Before the 1960s or so, almost all charity for the sick and poor in Canada was carried out by institutions founded as Christian organizations (ie the Salvation Army).

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by D as in David

The issue is that religious organizations can obtain charitable status without having to prove that they are doing or will do charitable work.

Yup. That's the tradeoff alright. We basically assume they are doing enough charitable work to justify the public policy decision to provide beneficial tax treatment. The question is whether making them play by the same rules as a normal charity would cost the large-scale benefit they provide, in terms of running soup kitchens etc. by increasing their administrative burden. In other words, by making this change, would a lot more people be worse off?

I would be interested to know how many charities registration numbers are associated with church organizations that exclusively base their registration on advancement of religion as their purpose, as opposed to advancement of religion plus something else.

[TheIronMaiden]

NSFW!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Some historians argue that some Indigenous cultures have very flexible religious beliefs, meaning that they can adopt and incorporate different religious elements with out committing a cultural faux pas or sin. This is in contrast to Christianity which has very rigid rules and procedures. So in other words, and Indigenous person can say to lords prayer and go to church, but not exactly abandon their own cultural or religious practices. ( this point really pissed off and confused missionaries who had a binary view of religion and culture)

Maybe so. But only 78k indigenous Canadians identify their religion as traditional North American indigenous spirituality - one-sixth as many as identify as Catholic. On the whole, I think you’d find most indigenous Christians are conventionally Christian (ie the Catholics believe in the core tenets of the Catholic faith).

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810028801

Pop culture gives us a distorted picture of indigenous behaviours. Non-indigenous audiences seem to enjoy depictions of traditional native spirituality. I suppose because it’s exotic and unsullied with the history of Christianity. But as noted, for every indigenous Canadian who follows those traditions, there are six who are Catholics.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Actively religious people tend to be happier, live healthier lifestyles, and are more socially and civically engaged. These correlations persist when controlling for other demographic factors.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...und-the-world/

They also have better mental health and lower rates of depression:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/article...0Liu%2C%202014

There’s solid empirical data behind the case for the state supporting religious institutions and engagement.

That’s today. But there’s no reason to believe that wasn’t the case in the past as well. Then there’s the charitable role religion played back before the welfare state grew post WW2. Before the 1960s or so, almost all charity for the sick and poor in Canada was carried out by institutions founded as Christian organizations (ie the Salvation Army).

Different strokes for different folks. But as soon as religious beliefs are used to justify things like abortion bans and anti-lgbt policies, we're gonna have a problem. And instead of giving religious institutions tax-exempt status, I'd rather tax them and use the proceeds to build more affordable housing and provide better public services.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Almost half Canada’s indigenous population identifies as Christian, and almost a third (485,000) as Catholic. Around 40,000 people, mostly indigenous, attend the Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage in Northern Alberta every year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...erta-1.6502477

So they’d likely agree with that statement at about the same rate as the rest of Canadians.

I wonder what historical events could have possibly contributed to this.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Actively religious people tend to be happier, live healthier lifestyles, and are more socially and civically engaged.

this is a correlation, but it seems more like inverse causation.

Flip that sentence around to:

People who are happier, live healthier lifestyles, and are more socially and civically engaged tend to be active in activities such as religion and volunteering.

And it's kind of a "well duh" statement.

Now on top of that there's the whole "ignorance is bliss" part of faith in general. A person who believes in a creator and an afterlife is probably less cynical overall, but that's not because of organized religion, it's because of their own personal belief system aligning with said religion.

I think I would be happier if I could delude myself into believing certain things (e.g. "people who deserve good outcomes will get them because God") but the problem is that I have not had the ability to believe this sort of thing since childhood, even with religious parents.

There's also the whole "indoctrination" problem of religion that cause real problems. I met someone last year who basically told me she grew up in a cult... in Airdrie. A Christian sect. That forced her to cut family ties and live a very difficult late-teen/early adult life.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

While not perfect, Christianity is the reason Western Civilization is what it is. Rule Based Law, a better than most attempt at equality, stability.

Could it be better? Yes of course. But you just have to look at the quality of life outside Western World to realize how much Christianity helped shape a generally peaceful and prosperous society.

I mean outside the Western World, Japan and Korea are fair and free countries, and both were heavily shaped by the Western World post WWII.

I don't even go to church, but I can see the on balance advantage the Christian religion has had on our quality of life. Unless your a anti-religion communist, in which case you have tons of examples of worse.

Maybe we should move to our bashing religion thread, but;

I think this is very dismissive of history and any other cultures who have been very advanced in their forms of rules based order in their own rights, possibly completely missing the origin of most Christian institutions came from which was the coopting of other cultures, and perhaps unaware of the ways christianity actively held society back from advancement until enlightenment thinkers started ignoring christianity .

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Maybe so. But only 78k indigenous Canadians identify their religion as traditional North American indigenous spirituality - one-sixth as many as identify as Catholic. On the whole, I think you’d find most indigenous Christians are conventionally Christian (ie the Catholics believe in the core tenets of the Catholic faith).

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=9810028801

Pop culture gives us a distorted picture of indigenous behaviours. Non-indigenous audiences seem to enjoy depictions of traditional native spirituality. I suppose because it’s exotic and unsullied with the history of Christianity. But as noted, for every indigenous Canadian who follows those traditions, there are six who are Catholics.

I think you are offering a binary and simplistic view on what is a complex and interesting history.

If you're interested I would read Tolly Bradford and Chelsea Horton's Mixed Blessings: Indigenous Encounters with Christianity in Canada

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

While not perfect, Christianity is the reason Western Civilization is what it is. Rule Based Law, a better than most attempt at equality, stability.

Could it be better? Yes of course. But you just have to look at the quality of life outside Western World to realize how much Christianity helped shape a generally peaceful and prosperous society.

I mean outside the Western World, Japan and Korea are fair and free countries, and both were heavily shaped by the Western World post WWII.

I don't even go to church, but I can see the on balance advantage the Christian religion has had on our quality of life. Unless your a anti-religion communist, in which case you have tons of examples of worse.

Arguably, the bolded was mostly established during the Renaissance/Enlightenment and its focus on humanism as well as pre-Christian societies like Greece and Rome.

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle - the big three, developed their theories hundreds of years before the Church was established.

This also hand-waves other ancient civilizations we took much from, or their general contributions to science and society during the middle ages.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I wonder what historical events could have possibly contributed to this.

You’re welcome to visit the Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage and tell the thousands of indigenous Canadians gathered there that they’ve been duped and brainwashed, and their faith is a sham that was foisted on them. No doubt they’d welcome that insight from an irreligious white dude.

Religion typically spreads by conquest, assimilation, and proselytizing. But that’s just as true of Indonesians and Islam as it is of Indigenous Canadians and Catholicism. Again, feel free to tell Muslims in Jakarta that their religious faith is inauthentic because it was foisted on their ancestors by outsiders.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Arguably, the bolded was mostly established during the Renaissance/Enlightenment and its focus on humanism as well as pre-Christian societies like Greece and Rome.

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle - the big three, developed their theories hundreds of years before the Church was established.

This also hand-waves other ancient civilizations we took much from, or their general contributions to science and society during the middle ages.

We did get a lot of moral and ethical foundations from those sources. But we got a lot from Christianity as well. We’d find many of the moral norms of classical Greece or Rome frighteningly alien. Our society is so steeped in Christian morality that we don’t even perceive it, like fish in water. Tom Holland has written a book about it.

Classical paganism, while tolerant of divergent traditions, was far from “liberal” in the modern sense, and certainly not egalitarian. Arguably, toleration and elective democracy (and then only briefly) are the only aspects of contemporary liberal values that can be found in the ancient world. In a mostly convincing way, Holland argues that concepts like human rights, socialism, revolution, feminism, science, and even the division between religion and the secular (which then allows for ecclesiastical disestablishment and toleration) find their origins specifically in the gospels, the Pauline epistles, and the writings of the Church Fathers…

This synthesis of inversion and universalism, Holland claims, renders the principles that “all souls were equal in the eyes of God.” As such, the origins of egalitarianism, human rights, and even revolution aren’t to be found among the Jacobins of Paris, or the revolutionaries of Boston and Philadelphia, but rather in the Bible. “Never before had there been anything quite like it,” Holland writes, “a citizenship that was owed not to birth, nor to descent, nor to legal prescriptions, but to belief alone.” While today the language of human rights can be estimably secular, the thesis itself would have been nonsensical to an ancient Roman; human rights had to first be filtered through this conception of the fundamental metaphysical equality of souls created by God.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/...s-christendom/

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by #-3

Maybe we should move to our bashing religion thread, but;

I think this is very dismissive of history and any other cultures who have been very advanced in their forms of rules based order in their own rights, possibly completely missing the origin of most Christian institutions came from which was the coopting of other cultures, and perhaps unaware of the ways christianity actively held society back from advancement until enlightenment thinkers started ignoring christianity .

It's a strong tradition of the Abrahamic religions to act on the belief that only they know best, and y'all are savages who need to be taught through whatever means necessary the path to "salvation". They'll kill us with their "kindness" if that's what it takes for the rest of us to accept their fantasy.


The fact Cliff likes to parade around the fact that this exact thing happened to our indigenous populations, and now they are stuck with this odd Stockholm syndrome like legacy of that brutal indoctrination is a pretty good indication some people still don't get it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Again, feel free to tell Muslims in Jakarta that their religious faith is inauthentic because it was foisted on their ancestors by outsiders.

Are we back to strawmanning, Cliff? I thought you'd have moved past that by now. No one is suggesting that their faith is inauthentic.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We did get a lot of moral and ethical foundations from those sources. But we got a lot from Christianity as well. We’d find many of the moral norms of classical Greece or Rome frighteningly alien. Our society is so steeped in Christian morality that we don’t even perceive it, like fish in water. Tom Holland has written a book about it.

I think there's probably some debate to be had about whether those values were inherently Christian vs. what Christians took (usually through force) from other belief systems and then claimed as their own.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

No one is suggesting that their faith is inauthentic.

That's true, you didn't. But it wasn't clear what your point was in referencing the historic events that led to those demographic numbers.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That's true, you didn't. But it wasn't clear what your point was in referencing the historic events that led to those demographic numbers.

Mostly that it's pretty easy to boost the number of followers through genocide and the eradication of other spiritualities.

We may have subsequent generations of indigenous people who I identify as Christian, but that's not indicative of it winning out on its own virtues.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

But that's just another straw man, isn't it? No one was saying that Catholocism (or Christianity) won out on its own virtues, unless I missed something.