[PGT] Flames lose 4-3 in OT

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Locke

I know I sounds like a broken record on this, but...he's made TONS of money off the Flames.

I'm not doing all of the math again, but considering the Flames' original purchase price, even adjusted for inflation versus their current value not even considering the increased value from a new arena, it is massive.

Furthermore, the Flames essentially pay for themselves. Their operating revenue largely covers their operating costs, some years profits, some years losses, but it basically covers itself.

In the meantime you have a massively valuable asset that can be borrowed against for other business endeavours if you want.

Its not just a toy.

I'm suspecting that is not true...at least not quite the way you put it.


He has "gained value"....but he hasn't "made TONS of" anything until he sells the club. It's just a pregnant gain at this point (you know this from tax, I'm pretty sure....). So until he is either in a position to sell, wants to sell and/or is permitted to sell, all he has is paper value and a paper gain. (I'm assuming the club operates at break-even mostly.)



Kinda like what investors experienced over the past few weeks where $6 trillion just.....evaporated. Like that! {{snap}}

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What he did at the deadline was absolutely correct. He couldn't improve the team without giving up futures at the worst possible price. He didn't want to sell key players for futures because the team was actually in a playoff spot, and had earned the chance to see if they could stay there.

You don't solve a team's problems at the deadline. If you're clearly out of it, you can add a few assets by selling players on expiring contracts. If you're clearly in it, you can improve your chances – slightly – by buying those players. If you're right in the middle, the smart move is to stand pat, unless you have a key injury and need to fill a specific hole.

Couple things, firstly the flames were not in a playoff spot at the deadline. They were 1 point behind the Canucks with even games played.

I wholly and completely disagree with you and I think he screwed it up royally. The flames were dead last league wide in goals for at the deadline. This team was dead in the water. Conroy bet on the flames to beat 4 other teams all contending for one spot. They were chasing a low percentage chance of squeaking into the post season given how many other teams were competing for that spot (Flames, Canucks, Utah, Blues and kinda the Ducks). Not capitalizing on a hot market for almost every other trade this TDL was a mistake (assuming the offers for flames players were strong as well).

At least he didn’t use future assets to prop up a mediocre team.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But the ownership ok'd the Markstrom trade, the heading into the season with the worst defense core on paper, and sitting on $20M in cap space.

Clearly Edwards thinks differently now.

We can't blame ownership and not GMs for the past, but then credit Conroy and not Edwards for the change this season.

I don't have the same faith you do he thinks differently now.

Conroy will eventually be facing the same pressures for immediate results as felt by his predecessors.

The fact we had several franchise faces push their way out of this organization, some with a really tumultuous exit that directly involved Edwards, I give him very little credit for accepting defeat and the situation for what it is.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its not a fact though...Flames were in a playoff spot, spent none of the 20M in cap space, and kept 2 firsts.
Something isn't a fact just because the same people say it 20 times over


Not to mention the question was why be a fan of something you obviously hate so much, like get a life its a dumb kids game.


The same posters that said this was the worst team in the league at the start of the year are now mad because the same ol' Flames put too good of a team on the ice, like you can't make this stuff up.

Some of us want to see a stanley cup run more than once every 25 years.. not first round exits and year over year battles for 8th place.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Some of us want to see a stanley cup run more than once every 25 years.. not first round exits and year over year battles for 8th place.

Tell you what, why don't you go and cheer for the Leafs? They haven't had a Stanley Cup run for almost 60 years, and have won one playoff series in the last 20 years. But hey, they don't finish 9th in the conference every single year! (Neither do the Flames, but people like you are absolutely convinced that they do because you prefer your narrative to the facts.)

I don't hear anybody saying the Leafs are dedicated to mediocrity or that they are trying deliberately to be in the mushy middle. Why is that?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I don't have the same faith you do he thinks differently now.

Conroy will eventually be facing the same pressures for immediate results as felt by his predecessors.

The fact we had several franchise faces push their way out of this organization, some with a really tumultuous exit that directly involved Edwards, I give him very little credit for accepting defeat and the situation for what it is.

I'm not really counting on anything.

He may revert back.
This may be the new schtick going forward.

Or maybe he was never the architect of those plans in the first place.

I have no idea.

But I do see change in the last 18 months compared to previous seasons, which is hard to argue.

And finishing where they are with what they did (trade goalie, leave $20M of cap, promote young players, find a franchise goalie) is a very different animal than a fading team being propped up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Yep I’m aware of that, my issue was with how Conroy didn’t make any moves at the deadline to make this team either better (to make the playoffs) or worse (to avoid losing the flames first round pick). My preference would have been to sell assets (Andersson, Vladar if possible, Kadri if he’d waive) and try to keep our pick and lose floridas.

Conroy inherited this mess, sure, but he didnt do anything to solve it at the deadline.

So if it is true that Vladar offers were poor to non existent and Kadri wouldn't waive - that leaves Andersson. Do you think trading him would have dropped the Flames to a top 10 pick?

[Rhett44]

As long as Murray Edwards is owner, I don't believe we will ever seriously compete for the cup. I just don't see him having the patience.

And already hearing about rumors of us big game hunting in free agency, I am worried.

There is always hope though, maybe he will sell the team or maybe Conroy will ignore him.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I'm suspecting that is not true...at least not quite the way you put it.


He has "gained value"....but he hasn't "made TONS of" anything until he sells the club. It's just a pregnant gain at this point (you know this from tax, I'm pretty sure....). So until he is either in a position to sell, wants to sell and/or is permitted to sell, all he has is paper value and a paper gain. (I'm assuming the club operates at break-even mostly.)



Kinda like what investors experienced over the past few weeks where $6 trillion just.....evaporated. Like that! {{snap}}

Yes, and you're right. But the stability and value of the asset can be assessed and borrowed against. Not unlike other stable assets.

For instance the Stock Market is an unstable asset as it is susceptible to external forces, many which would be considered 'unexpected.'

You can borrow against a hockey team and invest that loaned money. What he's 'actually done' I have no idea.Its not like he 'needs' to, he has other assets to borrow against.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

As long as Murray Edwards is owner, I don't believe we will ever seriously compete for the cup. I just don't see him having the patience.

And already hearing about rumors of us big game hunting in free agency, I am worried.

There is always hope though, maybe he will sell the team or maybe Conroy will ignore him.

Edwards is one of the owners, does he really have that much operational proxy?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Edwards is one of the owners, does he really have that much operational proxy?

I think the others pretty much delegate all the decisions to him. Most are pretty ancient.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think the others pretty much delegate all the decisions to him. Most are pretty ancient.

They would stop delegating in a hurry if he started making decisions they strongly disapproved of.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So if it is true that Vladar offers were poor to non existent and Kadri wouldn't waive - that leaves Andersson. Do you think trading him would have dropped the Flames to a top 10 pick?

It would have been pretty close. We are only 9 points up on 23rd overall and let’s be honest, this team only has 3 defenders who should be on an NHL roster, that’s Weegar, Andersson and Bahl.

That, plus whatever assets we would have had from trading Andersson would be far better than where we are now.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not really counting on anything.

He may revert back.
This may be the new schtick going forward.

Or maybe he was never the architect of those plans in the first place.

I have no idea.

But I do see change in the last 18 months compared to previous seasons, which is hard to argue.

And finishing where they are with what they did (trade goalie, leave $20M of cap, promote young players, find a franchise goalie) is a very different animal than a fading team being propped up.

I agree it's hard to dispute the change. We can debate the process of how they got here or who's ultimately responsible, but it doesn't change the fact that there's been at least some temporary restraint from the organization to win now at all costs for the past 1.5 seasons.

It's why I see this off-season as the first pressure test to this change in philosophy.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by redmile04

Some of us want to see a stanley cup run more than once every 25 years.. not first round exits and year over year battles for 8th place.

Flames finish 9th every year...except those two recent division title banners in the rafters

players bailed a couple years back, they already have a rookie of the year candidate and the best defensive prospect in the league. 4 firsts the next two years. 2nd most cap space in the league.

same ole' Flames MI rite

Besides, calling out the owner for....doing exactly what you wanted but the team being better than expected largely due to a rookie seems strange.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

And already hearing about rumours of us big game hunting in free agency, I am worried.

I wouldn't worry, I doubt any big game is coming to Calgary.


And besides Marner, who is a big game?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I wouldn't worry, I doubt any big game is coming to Calgary.


And besides Marner, who is a big game?

Ehlers, Bennett and Boesser are probably the next most likely candidates. Tavares too but hes pretty damn old and doesn’t line up with Conroy’s age range.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

It would have been pretty close. We are only 9 points up on 23rd overall and let’s be honest, this team only has 3 defenders who should be on an NHL roster, that’s Weegar, Andersson and Bahl.

That, plus whatever assets we would have had from trading Andersson would be far better than where we are now.

It's is rare that a single player has that much impact.
And I'm not sure you say that with so much certainty without knowing what those assets were.
I think he goes in the summer anyways. And then we can argue about if that return is better or worse than the theoretical deadline returns.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's is rare that a single player has that much impact.
And I'm not sure you say that with so much certainty without knowing what those assets were.
I think he goes in the summer anyways. And then we can argue about if that return is better or worse than the theoretical deadline returns.

I think you’re downplaying how truly bad this team would be with only Weegar and Bahl and then whatever assortment of misfit defenceman fill out the bottom 2 pairs. But like I said, I think it would be close to top 10 pick territory.

And damn right there will be arguing, sure as gods got sandals.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

The Flames were outshooting and outplaying the Ducks badly for most of the game. I wouldn't call it a steal, just a goalie doing what they should.

Don't get me wrong......he's been unreal this season, like found money. Tonight he was just average, not other worldly. So when he lets in one or two goals we come to expect him to stop it feels like a letdown. But he's the team's MVP this season, it's just bad timing, not much else. Just the way it goes.

We won't remember this game at all when he leads the Flames to a Cup in 5 years

Husso was having an outstanding game... until he wasn't. Wolf was having an outstanding game... until he wasn't.

You can't use the opposing team's goalie having a great game as a demerit against how well your goalie is playing.

Wolf's expected goals against was 2... so if he shut the door at 3-1, he finishes the game with a goal saved above expected. We can split hairs about what's a steal and what isn't, but it's undeniable that he was very good (I would argue great) up until the final 3 goals.

Agreed that all signs point to Wolf's future with the Flames being very bright.